Andrew ditched Cursor for Claude Max and the economics made it an easy call.

In this episode they get into the Meta Monster pivot toward content optimization, why Claude hallucinated an entire Wix API, and what the switch to Conductor actually looks like day to day.

Links:

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:

00:00.47
Sean
Cool. Thanks. What's up?

00:03.03
Andrew
Not much. I haven't seen you in like three fucking months.

00:06.58
Sean
Yeah.

00:06.74
Andrew
How are you?

00:08.06
Sean
ah I'm good. Q1 is finally over. RSA is finally over. So now it's time to worry about Black Hat.

00:15.45
Andrew
Jesus.

00:17.14
Sean
um But.

00:19.03
Andrew
Q1 being finally over means we're like even closer to the death day for Metamonster.

00:19.26
Sean
ah

00:25.67
Sean
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:27.03
Andrew
Have I told you this, that like Austin and I were like, if if it's not working by the middle of the summer, we're gonna, we need to like pull the plug.

00:34.90
Sean
You have. You have. yeah What would you do if you pulled the plug? Would you start a new thing, or can I finally hire you again?

00:43.25
Andrew
Dude, i I have, I don't know, is the short answer, but I have lots of thoughts. Like part of me wants to to buy a trad business, which is what I've been calling brick and mortar businesses lately.

00:53.78
Andrew
And every time I say it, it makes people cringe, which is why I continue to say it.

00:56.04
Sean
That's horrible. du't That's disgusting. Mexico City is changing you. i can't believe you'd say that.

01:02.13
Andrew
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:03.16
Sean
forpin

01:05.14
Andrew
No, that's just me having a stupid sense of humor. You can't blame Mexico City for that.

01:07.90
Sean
No, no, it's good.

01:09.10
Andrew
Mexico City way too beautiful a place to blame for that.

01:09.88
Sean
It's good. Speaking, speaking of trad related things, have you seen the documentary?

01:14.26
Andrew
Oh God, where is this going?

01:18.45
Sean
Have you been, ah have you been, ah did you watch the Manosphere documentary on Netflix with Louis Thoreau?

01:24.79
Andrew
No, but my little sister did and she was like, you have to watch it.

01:28.22
Sean
It's so good.

01:28.28
Andrew
And i I haven't watched it yet. Yeah.

01:30.15
Sean
It's so good. It's all Ben and I could talk about at RSA.

01:34.26
Andrew
Nice.

01:34.32
Sean
Sorry.

01:35.00
Andrew
Have you seen Project Hail Mary yet?

01:37.11
Sean
No, I hear it's good, but i don't know what it's about.

01:38.71
Andrew
I hear it's really good. Yeah. Oh, you didn't read the book?

01:42.21
Sean
No, I don't read.

01:43.86
Andrew
I forgot.

01:44.73
Sean
yeah i think I think if all books were in AI chat bubbles, I would read all of it, but they're not. so that's

01:52.77
Andrew
That's the lamest thing you've ever said to me. It's almost as bad as trad businesses.

01:59.32
Sean
it's It's probably worse.

02:02.68
Sean
um How you been?

02:03.89
Andrew
Dude, I've been good.

02:04.43
Sean
How's life?

02:06.32
Andrew
um We are working on a pivot for Metamonster. i am becoming, I'm embracing the fully AI-pilled by boy life.

02:10.74
Sean
OK.

02:18.71
Sean
OK.

02:18.81
Andrew
um i still love Mexico. Yeah.

02:23.66
Sean
Good.

02:26.68
Andrew
yeah

02:28.11
Sean
OK, can you tell me, can you just tell me what you're pivoting to before I like rip my hair out? Because I really need you to build some features at the moment.

02:35.48
Andrew
So it's I call it a pivot part somewhat facetiously. um

02:39.31
Sean
OK.

02:40.45
Andrew
we're We're not really pivoting, like the tool is still going to work the same way it does now, um but we're going deep on content optimization.

02:46.03
Sean
Cool.

02:51.03
Andrew
So we're building we're building a single page view where you can still update metadata, but we also do SERP analysis and content recommendations for you and help you auto apply them.

03:04.79
Andrew
um And so we're we're going to be adjusting our positioning to more directly take on ClearScope and Surfer. um

03:15.96
Sean
and air ops.

03:16.09
Andrew
So the Yeah, air ops a little bit. I think of air ops as a little bit different. I think of air ops more as content orchestration, um like generate content at scale, whereas we're more content optimization.

03:30.78
Andrew
So like take your existing content or like new pieces of content and help you optimize it. Yeah.

03:38.01
Sean
Sick.

03:39.39
Andrew
Yep.

03:40.43
Sean
Cool.

03:40.44
Andrew
um

03:41.18
Sean
is Is this like a like like an editor that I'm writing in? And then, OK, cool. And then you can publish the web flow.

03:49.05
Andrew
ah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:50.40
Sean
Oh, good, good, good, good.

03:50.74
Andrew
Totally, totally.

03:52.44
Sean
You should do it. You should do it so I can use it. i don't I don't care.

03:55.22
Andrew
Yeah.

03:56.00
Sean
No. What?

03:56.73
Andrew
So, the um I, did you see my LinkedIn post by chance? Dude, I spent like half of last week vibing with Claude on a Wix integration, and then I finally go to test it.

04:13.21
Andrew
it It shouldn't have taken me a a whole week to test it. I just got distracted by like three other things. um And I finally go to test it, and I'm like, huh, it's not working. Why isn't it working?

04:23.70
Andrew
And Claude goes, oh yeah, the Wix API I was using was purely speculative. Like, I just made it up. I was like, motherfucker Are you fucking kidding me? um And it turns out like Wix, like Squarespace does not support us updating SEO metadata for anything except blog posts. So I just scrapped the whole thing and was like, fuck this.

04:48.31
Andrew
um

04:49.72
Sean
Well, but you could do like cloud code browser use types of things to like manually.

04:55.80
Andrew
I could and I did and it took for fucking ever. It took like two hours to update 30 pages. It was painfully slow and eventually ran out of context.

05:04.43
Sean
Gotcha.

05:07.72
Sean
Gotcha.

05:07.77
Andrew
um

05:08.57
Sean
Damn.

05:08.92
Andrew
And I was just like, this is horrible. um So ah yeah, my hope is that like Wix and Squarespace wake the fuck up and realize what century they're living in and build a decent halfway decent API. Yeah.

05:21.71
Sean
Hmm.

05:22.58
Andrew
yeah

05:23.51
Sean
Doesn't Wix have a AI thing like called editor X or something like that?

05:28.02
Andrew
Yeah, um I actually used it to create my dummy site. um

05:31.94
Sean
Oh, nice.

05:32.73
Andrew
It did a shockingly good job of creating the dummy site. Like, if the site looked genuinely good. um I created a site for the Charleston Dumpster Company, which is...

05:43.74
Sean
Hmm.

05:45.58
Andrew
stealing my friend's idea to build dumpsters, like actual metal dumpsters in Charleston. Yeah,

05:50.43
Sean
Oh, nice.

05:52.76
Andrew
yeah so I generated a site with it. it's It did an impressive job of like the first pass and then was absolutely agonizingly painful to like make edits with.

06:06.62
Sean
maybe that's why they they bought base 44 or something like that right or

06:11.59
Andrew
That's cool. I did see something where you like they have like an a local IDE or something. and And so there may be a better way to do it. I was just using their like in browser like AI chat thing.

06:23.42
Sean
gotcha why why did you choose wix by the way

06:26.84
Andrew
um So I am doing two ah client projects right now for Jade for Hello SEO. And she gave me a WordPress project and a Wix project.

06:33.89
Sean
I see.

06:36.79
Andrew
um And I'm doing this to like, so that I can more, I can like feel the pain of trying to use Metamonster to do the work. um And um so I've just been like slowly doing the work, building new features, like polishing up the features we have to make sure they they do the job well as I've been doing these projects.

06:57.70
Andrew
And one of the projects was a Wix project and I really did not want to copy and paste everything. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna try to build a Wix integration.

07:03.85
Sean
Gotcha.

07:05.66
Andrew
um

07:05.87
Sean
Gotcha.

07:06.68
Andrew
And then I found out I can't. so

07:09.13
Sean
It's purely speculative, but it is so funny. Nice.

07:13.53
Andrew
Absolutely hilarious. I was like, you're fucking kidding me. ah So i've spent a bunch of time late last night copying and pasting. I did update our copy and paste flow at least so that like you can mark things as done as you and like you can filter by like status and stuff. So it's at least like easier to copy and paste stuff now.

07:35.22
Andrew
But

07:35.38
Sean
Good. Cool. Cool.

07:38.38
Andrew
Yeah. And then there's a JSON export so that you can paste it into like a cloud window and be like, Hey, update these things. But it's just like the cloud browser control stuff is still like kind of slow and clunky.

07:51.35
Sean
Cool. um an mcp server

07:55.98
Andrew
Might be better in fast mode. I wonder they have like fast mode in their Chrome plugin.

08:04.06
Sean
No clue. No idea. You're like the expert now.

08:05.60
Andrew
Yeah.

08:06.60
Sean
You're like the Gary Tan of our podcast. but Without... Yeah.

08:11.66
Andrew
Sure.

08:11.97
Sean
isn't it just yeah

08:13.89
Andrew
Let's go with that. um What are the features you want me to build?

08:20.01
Sean
i need just like an api or a mcp server that i can pull um okay so so uh uh while you've been like i've i've also been exploring like ai things hyper agent is my new best friend hyper agents by air table crazy that they own hyperagent.com given that everyone's calling there yeah

08:41.58
Andrew
Oh, is this the thing that Airtable like founder like built vibe coded by himself?

08:47.62
Sean
Oh, maybe. i don't know. it was called Composio, so, yeah.

08:48.70
Andrew
I think he did. i I think the first version he like built just on nights and weekends like by himself.

08:53.07
Sean
I don't know.

08:56.62
Sean
Nice. Awesome. Even better. um Hypersion is dope. Also, if you get off the wait list, which is like after a week or so, you get like a thousand bucks in credits, which is like infinite amounts of things you can do.

09:05.72
Andrew
Mm hmm.

09:11.08
Sean
The first time I tried it, I was like, like, find me candidates for a senior collateral designer.

09:11.19
Andrew
Cool.

09:16.64
Sean
And it just gave me like, like, you know, a great list of, of of folks that cost like two bucks or something like that.

09:20.58
Andrew
Sick.

09:23.62
Andrew
Cool. Mm-hmm.

09:23.97
Sean
Um, uh, recently i used it to build like a full on reporting. Basically like we've been trying to figure out like what our reporting like process looks like for clients. Um, uh, we're, we're trying to do this thing, right. I think we talked about it before. Like I want to own like outcomes, which means like we own like the website entirely. um So if one of our largest clients, i we built that, I built that like a dashboard that like actually has like insights into like what's happening and and whatnot. And, uh, it's connected like and google analytics, hfs and ah, um, and Google search console.

10:00.50
Andrew
Sick.

10:00.67
Sean
Um, uh, I think like, oh, yeah, I use it every, like every week.

10:01.62
Andrew
By the way, have have you played with SEO Gits yet?

10:07.66
Sean
Um, I, I have it plugged into there.

10:07.71
Andrew
Nice. Awesome.

10:09.18
Sean
Like, I think SEO gets is still like where we go to for us to deep dive into, but

10:14.10
Andrew
Yeah, like manual analysis.

10:15.84
Sean
Yeah,

10:16.12
Andrew
But like you want to go straight to the source for the for the dashboard.

10:19.71
Sean
yeah well the dashboard just like to pull stuff out for clients with as they have um questions.

10:22.81
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

10:23.90
Sean
you know like like They give us like, hey, we wanna know these things every month, these things every quarter, these things every every help the frequency and then like we wanna structure like this. And like ah one of our marketers was like struggling with like Looker Studio because it's from like made in like the 1900s as far as I'm concerned.

10:42.74
Sean
And Ahrefs doesn't plug into it very well on the current plan.

10:46.16
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

10:47.14
Sean
um

10:47.46
Andrew
Cool.

10:48.02
Sean
And I don't want to pay 500 bucks a month per user.

10:51.20
Andrew
By the way, did you see that Ahrefs has like actually improved their pricing some recently?

10:51.64
Sean
or

10:55.74
Andrew
Like they've added some amount of AI visibility and and API access to all plans, which I'm like, fuck yeah, that's cool.

11:00.84
Sean
Yeah.

11:05.38
Andrew
It's cool to see a company like actually being brave and doing something like that.

11:05.76
Sean
Yeah.

11:09.86
Sean
Yeah, which is what I definitely abused to build this thing. um

11:13.72
Andrew
Hell yeah.

11:15.14
Sean
Basically, like ah the API, I forget what it was, basically hyper agent then like built, like it couldn't hit like their brand radar API because of our, I forget for whatever whatever reason, but it just went ahead and built like a new agent that like specifically is for that and like pulls that all down, adds to dashboard.

11:24.93
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

11:31.100
Andrew
Sick. By the way, data for SEO has AI visibility data too.

11:33.71
Sean
Oh.

11:37.88
Andrew
I have no idea how good it is, but yeah.

11:39.76
Sean
Good point. Okay, try it out. Yeah, good point. Anyway, um um yeah, just ah one of the things that I needed answer is like, like ah is schema paying off in sitelinks and SERPs and whatnot, as well as as well as like FAQ and whatnot.

12:01.62
Andrew
Super cool.

12:06.36
Sean
And i don't want to hook it up to Screaming Frog. i don't even know how I would do that locally. i would prefer a cloud product like Metamonster where I can hit the API or an MCP server and have Hyper Agent, you know, pull it out of that.

12:22.59
Andrew
So, so are you envisioning that you would send, um, send the meta monster, like API, a single URL and get back like metadata or what, what are you envisioning? Tell me more.

12:39.74
Sean
Um, all I want is for my dashboard to hit the metamonster API and go, um, like, and and like ask questions like, uh, I'm sorry.

12:52.98
Sean
so I don't need it to ask a question for, for metamonster to respond. I just needed to pull the data of like, here's the structured scheme of every single, a page that's on this website.

13:04.28
Andrew
Shorbycki, interesting so you literally just want to use this as a crawler like you don't it's not you don't care about using like us for generation or anything like that you just want to like we've crawled everything and organize the site data and you just want access to that site data. Justin Shorbycki,

13:20.68
Sean
uh yes for the reporting no for like we still want to use it for the optimization stuff because we got the webflow ai before that stuff is garbage um um so i still want

13:24.59
Andrew
hmm.

13:37.09
Andrew
So you, you basically want to be able to like post a URL and have us crawl that and like add it as a project and met a monster. And then you want to be able to for that.

13:47.68
Sean
ah don't even need I don't even need that part. I can set it up manually in Metamonster and I just query for that yeah URL.

13:56.55
Andrew
Yeah, but if we might as well like let you post the URL too.

13:58.05
Sean
Yeah, yeah, sure. Fair enough.

13:59.85
Andrew
Like, yeah.

14:01.40
Sean
Fair enough. Yeah.

14:02.95
Andrew
So you post the URL, you you create a project in MetaMonster, and then you wanna be able to query the site data and

14:03.09
Sean
Yeah.

14:09.12
Sean
Yeah.

14:10.14
Andrew
um query the site data the same way we query the site data locally. Like, yeah, to be able to be like, how many pages have schema or are missing schema or whatever.

14:17.84
Sean
Yeah.

14:20.98
Sean
Right.

14:21.100
Andrew
And then and then you ideally wanna be able to like kick off workflows as well.

14:22.28
Sean
Right.

14:27.72
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I think not in the, not in my dashboard, i would do it in Metamonster. The dashboard is just for the clients like read only for the client. um

14:36.57
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

14:37.24
Sean
I want to take said site data and compare to things in like Ahrefs and whatnot. So yeah.

14:44.35
Andrew
Super cool. Interesting. um Yeah. I kind of want an MCP or API or whatever so that because, you know, I build the MetaMonster marketing website in um just in raw code and I would love to be able to just give Claude like an API and be like, hey, I generated schema for everything, pull the new schema and like update it.

14:58.50
Sean
Yeah.

15:01.44
Sean
Yeah.

15:06.86
Sean
Yeah. um Yeah, that'd be cool.

15:11.16
Andrew
Yeah.

15:11.35
Sean
Yeah. yeah It's okay. i can I can just have it build a speculative API for Metamonster until until you're you're ready. Yeah, so.

15:19.33
Andrew
um so i mean the the like my role is shifting a little bit like the way that i'm we're sort of operating right now austin is working on the big new stuff so he's working on like getting the experience dialed for the content optimization flow um and then while he's doing that i'm doing seo work and then

15:24.24
Sean
Oh. Okay. Great. Nice.

15:43.24
Andrew
we're trying to create this like super fast feedback loop where I'm contributing to the product now. So I'm doing SEO work. Every time I get annoyed by something, I just go in and update it in the product. um And, and then we just repeat. And so, um,

15:58.95
Andrew
Yeah, like quite possibly i will work on things like integrations or APIs and stuff um over the next few weeks.

16:05.31
Sean
Sick. Sick.

16:08.48
Andrew
um The one thing we've got to figure out how to do is like make sure that marketing doesn't grind to a halt while I'm doing this stuff. um So.

16:17.02
Sean
I mean, or if you build a comp, like a clear scope for this stuff. that saves and that pushes the webflow that does save me from building margins, which means I could just, you know, you want to go to do little rev share agreement.

16:28.10
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

16:32.66
Sean
I'll just get you some ARR real quick.

16:37.10
Andrew
Whoa. Okay. I don't know if like our editor is going to be full featured enough for you to be happy with it.

16:47.48
Sean
I see.

16:47.76
Andrew
Cause like you were trying to build like tables and all sorts of shit.

16:51.35
Sean
That's true.

16:51.31
Andrew
We're just trying to build content optimization. So we're looking at words on page. Yeah.

16:57.38
Sean
that's true i mean i'll i'll i'll toss it over to the clients anyway why not like they still uh we we do need sorry i'm sure they are also interested in something like that um for what it's worth and uh it's not like it's not like i'm building margins anytime soon at this point so um

17:02.69
Andrew
yeah

17:19.100
Andrew
Yeah, dude, if you have some time after after we wrap today, I'd love to show you what we've built. um I mean, you have an account.

17:27.68
Sean
Sure.

17:28.62
Andrew
You can log in and and play around with it. it's It's looking pretty freaking cool. I'm like pretty excited about it.

17:37.36
Sean
Cool. Cool. Cool. OK. um I can't do right after in this call, but later today.

17:40.86
Andrew
The positioning? OK, cool.

17:43.12
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

17:43.62
Andrew
The positioning. Actually, this is great. I want to get your your feedback on the positioning. um

17:49.14
Sean
Uh-huh.

17:50.36
Andrew
So basically, like we're thinking about pivoting the positioning to be more focused on this content optimization angle. um We'll still have the bulk generation stuff, um but that's going to become more of like a secondary feature instead of the primary feature.

17:57.34
Sean
Hmm.

18:06.31
Andrew
um And so the way we're going to position it, i think the H1 I've got right now is optimize your content for quality, not keyword count.

18:17.70
Andrew
um So the idea is like to try to position this as surfer clear scope phrase, they're stuck in the past. They, their recommendations are all about stuffing your content full of keywords based on the keywords being used on other sites.

18:30.62
Sean
Right.

18:34.36
Andrew
But that's just like the first layer of like how Google and AI engines look at this stuff. we are giving you the tools to analyze your content with a qualitative AI rubric so that you can look at EAT signals.

18:50.46
Andrew
You can look at metadata. You can look at keywords still, yes. You can look at like where you'd benefit from FAQs, where you'd benefit from additional content, like not just stick this keyword here, but hey, you actually need to build content around this idea.

19:04.94
Sean
Yeah.

19:08.29
Andrew
um And we're going to make that rubric fully transparent so you can see exactly like what's leading to your grade and customizable so you can tweak it to be like what you care about to represent what you care about.

19:25.35
Andrew
And then we're going to try to do a much better job of applying auto applying the results, um the recommendations. um And we also have bulk generation for all of the little things like page titles, meta descriptions, image, alt text, um links.

19:44.10
Sean
Right.

19:47.04
Sean
Sick. um I think my only thought is, i think this fits in the rubric, but like having something that's like voice and tone guidelines that.

19:58.27
Andrew
Yep.

19:59.01
Sean
um

19:59.23
Andrew
Yeah, we we're already doing that. We automatically generate a voice and tone guide and ah business context based off of your existing content um when we crawl your site.

20:04.51
Sean
Cool. Nice.

20:09.86
Andrew
And then we also ah resurface those so you can edit them.

20:14.77
Sean
Sick. Cool. Yeah. Sounds great. I mean, sounds great. Is there anything else exists that does that?

20:24.60
Andrew
um I mean, ClearScope and Surfer definitely, like say they do, but they just, in my opinion, do a bad job.

20:34.20
Sean
Yeah, yeah. I think there are...

20:36.50
Sean
and wonder I wonder how ClearScope is doing in all these changes. yeah By the way, did you see that like Google engineer, like search engineer update about how like ah the Google only looks at the first two megabytes of a web page?

20:54.86
Andrew
No, I missed this.

20:55.86
Sean
Okay. It was like a, um so, so I think two things like one is that like quality. So two separate things. One is like quality is more important than ever. Google used to always deny that like they use click quality as like a way to rank or like promote pages.

21:11.66
Sean
um But now, now they're saying, yeah, absolutely do do that or something, something like

21:11.73
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

21:16.14
Andrew
what do you What do you mean click quality?

21:18.48
Sean
I think it's like, so, so I know this much for the record for, for those listening on audio, it's a very small amount.

21:22.64
Andrew
Yeah.

21:25.85
Sean
Um, um, I think what I saw was basically like, like, uh, folks are like clicking in, looking at like reading or staying on the site and then like the, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:36.08
Andrew
Oh, they're they're looking at dwell time.

21:39.09
Sean
Yeah. Among other things. I i don't.

21:41.81
Andrew
with Google Analytics data.

21:43.48
Sean
Right, right, right, right. Um, so I think,

21:45.25
Andrew
Yeah, or Google Pixel data, whatever.

21:47.76
Sean
Yeah. So I think that's, that's a big proponent of it. Um, um, so I think actual good quality means something not just like slop. Um, the other thing that's cool is that like, you know, the listicles method, like the silly SEO, like the wild west of SEO thing no longer works now.

22:09.49
Andrew
Yeah, we all knew that wasn't going to last long.

22:09.79
Sean
Uh, for sure.

22:11.88
Andrew
um

22:12.42
Sean
For sure.

22:12.82
Andrew
For the record, i think it still does work. It's just like not long lasting.

22:16.25
Sean
Hmm.

22:19.03
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

22:20.12
Andrew
It's not. ah Yeah, I think it still does work to some degree.

22:21.84
Sean
Yeah. You get the, you get the mountain. hear they call it the mountain or something, whatever. ah Yeah. And then, Anyway, ah and then some other engineer wrote a blog post about how Google search indexing works. And they actually, they only look at the first two megs of your website um to too because they're not going to load every single page across the website or across the entire internet.

22:51.60
Andrew
Super cool.

22:52.05
Sean
So that was interesting.

22:52.62
Andrew
Oh, this is sort of related.

22:53.30
Sean
Yeah.

22:55.16
Andrew
So one of my one of my best friends, ah Tony Castillo, who runs redirects.net and Whistler has been working on, he's currently selling it as a productized service, but he's like increasingly productizing it.

23:01.100
Sean
Hmm.

23:07.64
Andrew
And so it may become like a standalone product offering at some point. um He's been doing a bunch of like, AI analysis for companies, but looking, doing more like log analysis and like page structure analysis. So like, do you have schema? Do you have the right schema?

23:22.16
Andrew
And then, but also like log analysis of like AI bots, what are they doing? Are they hitting your site? What are are they getting to all of your content?

23:28.80
Sean
Right.

23:30.81
Andrew
Like more like structural, a structural approach to,

23:31.80
Sean
Cool. As a service or as a product?

23:37.18
Andrew
He's doing it as a productized service right now, but like I think it's going to become a product.

23:39.58
Sean
Oh, OK. Right, right, right.

23:41.100
Andrew
um ah

23:43.14
Sean
Cool.

23:43.96
Andrew
But he also built, um this might be very interesting to you, he built a little tool for taking any logo, converting it to an SVG, and then being able to export it in like whatever color you need or want or something.

23:55.100
Sean
OK.

23:57.27
Andrew
which is like, I don't, you all may already have a way of doing that that's super easy, but like, I feel like every logo wall I've ever built for a client's website, I was so freaking annoyed having to like, try to get the logos into the right, like format and color and everything.

24:14.46
Sean
He turns it in SVG as in like effectively it's like image tracing.

24:18.68
Andrew
Yeah, I think so.

24:19.55
Sean
I see, I see. Okay. Yeah. It's cool. It is cool. um um Yeah, it is it is cool. Have you seen Quiver?

24:31.57
Andrew
Huh, Quiver? No.

24:32.44
Sean
Yeah, Quiver knew, like it's like the first like model trained on SVG. So it like actually draws the SVG out instead of like, so you can like, instead of image tracing, it'll actually like, yeah, yeah.

24:41.55
Andrew
Sick. I did hear about this. I did hear someone talking about this. Yeah.

24:45.73
Sean
but We tried it. It was pretty good. It was pretty good. um

24:48.55
Andrew
Cool.

24:49.08
Sean
Half of my RSA was, yeah, go ahead.

24:49.34
Andrew
Yeah, I feel like ai design tools have taken a big step forward in the last couple months. Like, I keep hearing, I've heard about Quiver. There's one called, like, Pencil or something that's like sort of like headless Figma or something like that.

24:58.56
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

25:01.28
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

25:01.63
Andrew
um And then there, yeah, like I've heard people saying the Figma MCP integration has gotten better. um And then I'm really curious to see what the Tailwind guys release with UI.sh.

25:15.33
Andrew
I'm like anxiously awaiting that.

25:15.93
Sean
yeah um yeah man designs a designs a weird place like designs and uh you know

25:25.42
Andrew
I bet it is. Have you all been getting pressure from clients to like be move faster or like use AI more heavily?

25:34.52
Sean
um they don't pressure us to use ai more that they don't care if we do as long as like you know it's still good at the end yeah um um like like i've

25:40.50
Andrew
The output's good. Yeah.

25:46.08
Sean
a couple months ago I would be like, Oh yeah. Like I'm like, I'm going to use like Claude to make this thing. And then I was like, I don't, I don't give a shit. Like just like, if it's good, it's good.

25:54.14
Andrew
you

25:55.93
Sean
um, um oh I mean, I think there's a general pressure to move faster across the board. It's actually making me rethink like, since I've been doing a couple like product design gigs on MScreens, I've been thinking like maybe we are charging too little because it really shortens the timeframe of, um so I'm using Figma Make.

26:19.87
Andrew
Interesting. OK.

26:21.39
Sean
Figma Make is also one of my new best friends because you can copy it out to Figma. I don't do the design in, The visual design don't I don't touch but all the UX like wireframing stuff I do it in there and then on the call I'm literally like screen sharing that and like live chatting with it and making changes.

26:39.23
Sean
um The feedback I got was like this was like the feedback I got was we hated the other agency we worked with.

26:39.47
Andrew
Cool.

26:45.96
Sean
This is the first time we felt like we were really skeptical about like product designers. This felt way more collaborative. i was like great. I just I'm out here just you know.

26:56.46
Andrew
Yeah.

26:57.40
Sean
we just We just talk about stuff and and make the thing. And then the cool thing is you can copy it out into Figma and it's like relatively well structured, which then makes Chinmay's life infinitely.

27:03.68
Andrew
yeah

27:07.96
Sean
It also makes Chinmay's life way easier because he just understands what the product does because he can click around and do things. um

27:16.92
Andrew
and then he can apply his magic like where he's so good at the little details and like figuring coming up with crazy ideas to make things just look cool as shit

27:17.23
Sean
So.

27:19.59
Sean
Yeah.

27:22.78
Sean
God, it's.

27:25.69
Sean
It's so good. think I'll show you some of the stuff that he did.

27:28.86
Andrew
i want to see it i'm gonna see it yeah he and i were chatting on linkedin a little bit i'm stoked he's working with you guys again

27:30.36
Sean
Yeah, um

27:34.81
Sean
great he's great. Where has he been all my life? I'm so glad you two met randomly on a on a trail.

27:42.28
Andrew
literally in the middle of Spain, a tiny town in the middle of Spain.

27:44.84
Sean
Yeah. um But yeah, it it has made me has made me think like maybe like It's been two weeks.

27:55.18
Sean
We are almost done with the entire wireframe of the product. And now it's just visual design and how I'm like kicking myself because

28:02.27
Andrew
Yeah, now you can shift away from charging for time to like, maybe move towards like project based pricing and just be like,

28:09.34
Sean
Maybe. I feel like it's like because the scope keeps changing regardless. I don't know.

28:14.73
Andrew
Yeah.

28:15.16
Sean
I don't know. I got to think about it. Good point. Yeah. Anyway. um um Cool. Good to hear. do I do think the content optimizization optimization stuff is cool. I do actually think that like like I know I was trying to build like these cool custom blocks and margins and make it a block based editor but like that covers like like what you're saying covers like 85% of all the use cases. The table stuff is like a very small component of it, you know?

28:45.72
Andrew
Yeah, I will say too, though, our content optimization, like, and we could expand this pretty easily, but I don't, I don't know if I want to try to build a Webflow editor because that feels like a distraction. Like right now, we only pull in your, the pages you mark as priority pages for into our like content optimization,

29:07.07
Sean
Gotcha.

29:07.07
Andrew
like flow because mainly because content optimiz little real content optimization is like this multi-step process that's going to be like way more expensive than the rest of the stuff we do in the app from like an LLM token perspective.

29:08.73
Sean
Gotcha.

29:23.13
Andrew
um We're going to have to totally rethink pricing and like figure out how pricing works for this whole thing.

29:26.31
Sean
I was just going to say that. Yeah.

29:29.12
Andrew
um

29:29.19
Sean
Yeah.

29:30.40
Andrew
But

29:31.41
Sean
I feel like it's cool because because you have this idea of like priority pages. Because remember when we were talking about this, like you were very unsure about like what the outcome was and like we couldn't figure out like what, like do you charge per page scan?

29:45.86
Sean
And that's weird. And just generating like these things is like meta descriptions weird.

29:47.13
Andrew
Mm hmm. Mm

29:50.76
Sean
But like now that we're talking like big expense, relatively expensive work, that's worth paying for.

29:56.68
Andrew
hmm.

29:57.92
Sean
So cool.

29:59.64
Andrew
Yeah, we'll probably, I think like what Surfer and ClearScope and all of them do is like, they, you get like a number of pages optimized per month.

29:59.70
Sean
Very cool.

30:11.23
Andrew
Um, and so we'll probably have a hybrid model where it's like, you get a certain number of pages and then you get credits for extra stuff, like generating titles and descriptions and whatnot.

30:22.23
Sean
Yeah. You know what's a great place to get feedback on your product?

30:28.80
Andrew
Uh, where's that?

30:29.61
Sean
MicroConf, Portland, Oregon, April 13th.

30:31.61
Andrew
Damn it, Sean. When is it?

30:36.03
Sean
April 12th or 13th? 13th.

30:38.77
Andrew
Oh, I can't go.

30:39.57
Sean
13th. Why?

30:40.86
Andrew
i am going to be in Puebla doing two weeks of immersive Spanish lessons.

30:45.53
Sean
You just do it at microcom. I'm pretty pretty sure Rob speaks Spanish. like Or at least someone there speaks. Just. Fine. Fine. I don't know if I can go.

30:56.44
Andrew
What?

30:57.24
Sean
is the I'm trying to figure out what to do if I take it if I can't.

31:00.72
Andrew
Why can't you go?

31:06.46
Sean
don't

31:08.88
Andrew
What?

31:09.70
Sean
have a passport.

31:10.93
Andrew
Oh, shit. Did your passport expire?

31:11.92
Sean
My password just expired. Password just expired and I've put off getting my real ID for a year plus now.

31:13.52
Andrew
Yeah.

31:17.11
Andrew
Yeah.

31:20.34
Sean
um

31:21.33
Andrew
Dude, this shit happened to me when I was in Georgia. Because when I moved to Georgia, I got like a bullshit temporary ID. And then I had this whole thing where like my old ID from South Carolina from five years ago haded like was like suspended ah because like my insurance lapsed when I moved to Detroit.

31:35.85
Sean
Oh.

31:38.49
Andrew
Like I always had insurance. I never like did anything wrong.

31:40.09
Sean
Right.

31:41.40
Andrew
But I just like didn't tell South Carolina I moved or some shit. And so my Yeah, I got stuck in South Carolina. I wasn't legally able to drive and then like yeah couldn't like fly back from Charleston when I like drove a friend's car for them.

31:53.01
Sean
Damn.

31:56.13
Sean
Damn.

31:59.09
Andrew
Yeah, it was it's a mess.

31:59.54
Sean
Right.

32:02.74
Sean
Anyway, so I got a hotel at the nines and not

32:08.47
Andrew
Road trip, New York to Portland.

32:12.12
Sean
happening.

32:13.19
Andrew
It's gonna take you six days.

32:17.08
Sean
Yeah. um

32:18.64
Andrew
Shit, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna be able to get get your like, real ID in time?

32:21.30
Sean
So. I think HelloGov lets you expedite your passport way faster if you show them have a flight, which obviously I'm not booked because I'm a garbage human being when it comes to like travel logistics. Yeah.

32:41.80
Andrew
I fully understand that. It's one of my least favorite parts of life.

32:45.13
Sean
yeah yeah I don't know why it's so hard. I don't know why it's so like, it's, I think it's the ADHD. I think that's what like, it's too much decision, too many decisions, you know, like, um, uh, anyway.

32:51.18
Andrew
Yeah.

32:58.99
Sean
So if I have a flight and the cool thing is like, uh, microcoms just gave out a discount for United airlines flights somehow ah for two and from Portland.

33:08.65
Andrew
Interesting. I wonder how they did that.

33:09.58
Sean
i didn't know they could do that. No idea.

33:10.92
Andrew
No.

33:11.69
Sean
No clue.

33:11.89
Andrew
Weird.

33:12.81
Sean
Um, so I'm gonna try to get a fight tonight, do the whole situation. And then I don't know. Um, the, the, the worst part is I'm supposed to go to SF right after microconf for like a very fairly important, like CISO dinner that I got invited to a couple days ago.

33:31.18
Sean
Um, and i mean, I really want to go to microconf, but I also really want to go to SF for that. And, uh,

33:41.36
Sean
No clue.

33:43.88
Sean
So you don't want my ticket is what you're saying.

33:43.91
Andrew
Cool.

33:46.73
Andrew
I want your ticket. I just, ah yeah, a just booked all my shit to Puebla. I mean, I technically, what days are, is MicroConf?

33:58.59
Sean
I think 13.

33:59.02
Andrew
Like friday Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

34:01.48
Sean
No, no, no. is like Monday, Tuesday.

34:05.09
Andrew
Oh, yep, no, those are literally the first two days of class, so.

34:10.71
Andrew
Nope, I'll make it to MicroConf eventually. im I'm just gonna continue to wait until Metamonster can actually pay for my ticket.

34:18.48
Sean
Fair enough. Fine.

34:21.26
Andrew
Which is gonna be a while because, Like the second we're making $2,000 a month, I'm putting that shit into ads.

34:30.92
Sean
yeah, but, but like the number you care about is revenue. Who cares about profit? You know, okay so um but cool. Very cool. Um,

34:40.16
Andrew
If we if we get Metamonster to something resembling product market fit, I will go microconf.

34:51.28
Sean
Fine. Fine.

34:52.84
Andrew
Ironically, I probably need microconf more now than I would at that point.

34:55.59
Sean
I was going to say that. Yeah. Yeah.

34:58.08
Andrew
But

34:59.62
Sean
You think it's like a shame thing? you don't want to like show up with like a

35:02.76
Andrew
no, it's a I don't want to spend $2,000.

35:07.70
Sean
I'm giving you free ticket. um

35:11.48
Andrew
It's also in this case, I literally just booked a class.

35:15.42
Sean
Fair. Fair enough.

35:16.61
Andrew
Yeah.

35:16.82
Sean
Fair enough. um Okay. Well...

35:18.82
Andrew
And I already missed the class in October, so I can't, I can't miss it again. Can reschedule it again.

35:23.24
Sean
makes sense makes sense okay fine fine um i like i like this content content up the op there content optimization thing i think it's i think it has legs plus it's way easier for me to just be like

35:23.99
Andrew
Yeah.

35:30.16
Andrew
I'll get there eventually.

35:38.94
Andrew
I hope it fucking does, dude.

35:44.74
Sean
it's way easier for me to demo it to a marketer because when I, when I have pointed out, they're like, Oh, cool.

35:48.04
Andrew
yes

35:50.36
Sean
That's a cool tool that you use that I don't care about. yeah

35:54.14
Andrew
Yeah.

35:55.12
Sean
Versus this. So, um, sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet.

35:59.64
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. um I can't wait to get it in your hands. I want to know what you think of the actual recommendations and stuff where Austin's been pretty focused on the UI.

36:05.72
Sean
Hmm.

36:08.84
Andrew
So we haven't spent a ton of time dialing in the recommendations yet.

36:09.22
Sean
Hmm.

36:12.64
Andrew
It's just using the like existing workflows from the sandbox. um But ah yeah, he's going to, We're hopefully like we can get like you and Jade, especially like once we make the rubric editable, my goal is to like get you and Jade and like a couple people to like edit your rubrics.

36:30.82
Andrew
And then I can use that to figure out like what the ideal rubric is.

36:32.41
Sean
yeah well if if you need to get sock 2 so that our clients use it I know a great startup

36:45.14
Andrew
Ooh, yeah, I don't want to fuck with that anytime soon.

36:49.32
Sean
well I know a great startup I can get you one real quick immediately if you will I hear their need of customers at the moment. ah

37:00.24
Andrew
I didn't realize where you were going with that. I was like, it's like Jesus Christ, Sean, did you like buy another domain or something? And then, okay, I'm falling, picking up.

37:07.76
Sean
Yeah.

37:08.26
Andrew
what What was their name again?

37:08.56
Sean
Yeah.

37:09.89
Andrew
um

37:10.02
Sean
Delft.

37:11.22
Andrew
Delph, Delve, Delve.

37:12.39
Sean
I have, I have so much, I have so much extra tea that the world doesn't know about to tell you off the podcast later.

37:21.86
Andrew
Damn.

37:22.80
Sean
um

37:23.01
Andrew
You just gonna tease our three listeners like that?

37:26.88
Sean
11, first of all. Okay, 11. Or I can name six, I think.

37:38.80
Sean
Or actually 100 subscribers on YouTube. So actually a lot of them. Yeah, yeah.

37:41.90
Andrew
Damn.

37:43.61
Sean
Cool.

37:46.05
Sean
Cool.

37:46.86
Andrew
It's gonna be sad if we ever actually have a decent sized audience and then I have to like realize that people listen to this and I can't just bullshit my way through it.

37:58.20
Sean
No, we don't have to change. don't don't let Don't let fame corrupt you. We can continue to be mediocre podcasts post the entire time.

38:08.60
Andrew
We record an episode once every three months.

38:10.80
Sean
Yeah, this is a small effort, not a large lift. Okay.

38:18.44
Andrew
Love it. ah What else was on our list? What else we got? I feel like I had something else I wanted to tell you about. um i mentioned, to did a you talked about hyperagent. Did I talk about conductor at all yet?

38:35.82
Sean
See, I don't know because I feel like you did in the beginning, but we also talked about it on the pre-show, so I don't. Yeah.

38:41.42
Andrew
All right, Jonery, cut this out if if this is the second time we're talking about this.

38:44.47
Sean
Yeah. Tell me about Conductor. I do want to know what your Conductor setup is because I'm like, I feel so behind every day. You know, I see everyone.

38:50.82
Andrew
Dude, it's impossible not to. i fucking hate Twitter now because you get on Twitter and you like just feel bad about like what you're doing and then you get on LinkedIn and you're like, ah I'm fine.

38:55.40
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

39:01.26
Andrew
ah

39:05.76
Sean
Yeah.

39:07.20
Andrew
Okay, so Austin finally got me on Conductor. um My setup's not that crazy. um I'm not using any of their run or setup scripts because I couldn't quite figure them out.

39:16.89
Sean
Nice.

39:20.86
Andrew
Couldn't figure out how to make them work like the first time. um

39:23.07
Sean
Nice.

39:24.26
Andrew
One beef I have with Conductor is that like Conductor doesn't do a great job of like exposing Conductor to the Cloud code instances it spins up. So like it's hard to get the agents to like update your Conductor settings, which i wanted I wanted to just be like, agent, create a Conductor like run script. And it was like, what's Conductor?

39:42.40
Andrew
And I was like, this is annoying.

39:43.14
Sean
Oh, I see. I see.

39:45.32
Andrew
like Conductor should just give Cloud a markdown file like explaining like how Conductor works and and stuff.

39:45.86
Sean
see.

39:52.38
Sean
What do you think that markdown file would say?

39:54.47
Andrew
i don't know

39:55.52
Sean
hi Claude. I'm your manager.

39:58.98
Andrew
Oh my God, best feature of conductor. You can turn on alerts for when a, when a thread finishes and you can give it a choo-choo noise.

40:01.86
Sean
Oh.

40:06.94
Sean
Oh, that's really good. That's...

40:11.14
Andrew
So silly. It does get annoying after a while.

40:12.00
Sean
that

40:13.06
Andrew
I switched back to the chime. Um, just like a ah nice little chime, but sometimes I think about switching back to the choo-choo because like if I have other stuff running that makes chimes, like the choo-choo is more distinctive.

40:25.38
Andrew
Um,

40:25.54
Sean
I think it should be like the side based on the size of the of the task, you know, it's like a small thing.

40:30.95
Andrew
like gets a chime and a big thing gets a choo-choo.

40:32.55
Sean
It's like a doorbell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like a big feature shipped, fully tested, all that stuff, you know,

40:39.97
Andrew
Yeah. Love it. um But yeah, so basically what Conductor does is it's it's just a wrapper around cloud code, similar to what Aaron Francis is building, Solo Term. if you've Have you seen Solo?

40:55.82
Andrew
um

40:56.48
Sean
No, stop saying words to be.

40:58.60
Andrew
Okay, um Aaron Francis is working on a Cloud Code wrapper called Soloterm. It's just like a terminal the interface that runs.

41:05.94
Sean
Okay.

41:07.36
Andrew
um And you can you can sort of create project configurations where you like like run npm dev in addition to running Cloud Code.

41:15.14
Sean
Hmm.

41:16.68
Andrew
um The difference is conductor gets into the whole like work tree thing. So you can, every time you spin up a new branch, it's on like a totally distinct work tree. That's just like in its own little environment.

41:26.22
Sean
Right.

41:28.22
Andrew
It's still like, you know, you still have to have like, Like I still use the same local database for everything. So it's like not imperfect. It's kind of imperfectly separated.

41:39.14
Andrew
um And then i find I don't and don't have that many things running at once. Like max, I'll have like kind of two cloud instances running because it just starts to be too much to like check and keep up with.

41:51.34
Andrew
um But I have gotten into a flow now where for little stuff, I'll just like click plus in conductor, create a new branch, be like, make this change, merge that change.

42:05.54
Andrew
and then just move on with my life. And then if it's slightly bigger, I'll test it a little bit first. um And then they have like a nice, they have some nice like Git tooling built in so that you can like, ah they have like automated code reviews and like, you know, one click create PR merge sort of stuff.

42:16.02
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

42:25.26
Andrew
So that's nice. And then they have like, they have a little terminal, they have text editor. So it is a nice interface for like, in my opinion, better than just like bare bones cloud code. um And the thing that got me to switch was ultimately um the pricing. i ah i was using Cursor, I like Cursor, I still think Cursor something about the cursor harness um it does a in my opinion claude seems to do a better job with front-end tasks inside of cursor than it does in bare bones cloud code like i i think the claude harness is not great at front-end checking front-end stuff yet um so i have found

43:06.06
Sean
Right. Okay.

43:12.90
Andrew
And I may still continue to use Cursor a little bit for running tasks from time to time for that reason. um But it was ultimately like i spent a day like vibing pretty ah hard with within Cursor and I just like burned through my credits so fast.

43:31.94
Andrew
And I was like, and Cursor just can't compete with how much Anthropic is subsidizing the Claude Max plan right now. And so I was just like, fuck it. We're gonna take advantage of the free tokens.

43:40.64
Sean
but you you can't like Can you not hook up your Claude Max plan to your cursor?

43:46.76
Andrew
You can run Claude code inside of a terminal in cursor, but you can't like, it's not quite the same as using like using it as an agent in cursor, I don't think.

43:52.54
Sean
No.

43:58.80
Sean
I always thought you could like, i don't use cursor. use hot take. I use anti-gravity from Google. Yeah.

44:05.01
Andrew
Oh, interesting.

44:06.05
Sean
Yeah. yeah um Not, not for any other reason besides the fact that we're a Google workspace plan.

44:07.24
Andrew
Yeah.

44:11.01
Sean
So it's free.

44:12.04
Andrew
Makes sense.

44:12.97
Sean
ninety You know, actually now I'm paying for like the 200 bucks a month. but Anyway, my point, my point is like, I thought you could like give cursor like your clawed API key and run it.

44:24.61
Andrew
You can, but like Claude API key is more expensive than Claude Max plan.

44:29.80
Sean
Oh, I thought, okay. For some reason, I thought like the Claude Max plan had an API key that you could, oh.

44:35.72
Andrew
No, when you're using, when you're using API mode, you're paying, like you're paying per token versus the Claude Max plan.

44:40.53
Sean
Gotcha. Gotcha.

44:42.44
Andrew
You're paying like a deeply subsidized price on tokens. You're, you get like 5k worth of tokens a month for like 200 bucks a month on the Claude Max plan.

44:46.11
Sean
Gotcha.

44:50.24
Sean
Nice. Nice. Oh, okay. Good to know. Good to know.

44:54.49
Andrew
Cursor actually like the cursor founders were like complaining about it on Twitter because they were just like, how do we compete with this?

45:01.14
Sean
Right, right. Raise more money, burn more VC money. That's like, yeah.

45:06.88
Andrew
Set, set more money on fire.

45:11.09
Sean
Cool.

45:11.56
Andrew
But yeah, so I'm now, Conductor is now my my workspace. And yeah, my my mode right now is I'm like doing SEO work for Jade when I run into problems or like want a feature that doesn't exist.

45:25.36
Andrew
I build it in Conductor and then just like, then it's there.

45:26.92
Sean
yeah that's great.

45:30.02
Sean
That's great. I mean, that's like the ideal like like way to improve without like users at the moment without like a lot of users that get data, right?

45:41.78
Sean
So that's cool.

45:42.46
Andrew
Yep. And then just the, uh, and then I get super annoyed when I have to use antiquated CMSs that don't expose the modern API that lets me actually do the things I want to do. So then I have to copy and paste for an hour trad CMSs, if you will.

45:52.64
Sean
Yeah. Try out CMSs, if you will. and Yeah.

45:57.24
Andrew
Yeah.

45:57.76
Sean
Yeah.

45:59.62
Andrew
but

46:00.14
Sean
God damn it.

46:00.64
Andrew
the

46:03.14
Sean
um Cool.

46:06.47
Sean
Well, speaking last, last, I got to run it for, but RSA was, that's okay.

46:14.76
Andrew
Oh fuck yeah dude tell me everything.

46:16.86
Sean
It's okay. Thank you for asking. our Sorry, kidding. oh

46:23.05
Sean
ah RSA was a AI nightmare in my opinion. and i um um Well, okay.

46:30.82
Andrew
Yeah tell me tell me.

46:35.39
Sean
like a couple A couple of interesting things. First of all, I got in... I'm going to vent now for like two minutes.

46:41.26
Andrew
Do it.

46:41.59
Sean
ah I got in Thursday. um um a bunch of clients needed things last minute. to their to their like it was like last minute fundraising deck things because they realized they they were gonna like you know they were now in a pitch competition or they're raising and whatnot so i was stuck in my a b b until basically sunday morning sorry monday morning i missed all of these sides ah working um uh but rsa starts on monday i went to the xco floor god every

47:04.72
Andrew
Awesome.

47:07.38
Andrew
Ah, bummer.

47:15.10
Andrew
Does everyone sound the exact same?

47:17.14
Sean
Look, just because you have ai in your product, because as you should at this point, just because you have AI workflows does not i mean you are now an autonomous agentic, whatever bullshit you're doing.

47:23.70
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

47:31.66
Sean
But I get it. i get it.

47:32.45
Andrew
Yep.

47:32.70
Sean
Because all the VCs are gonna are pushing every single startup to call them that because evaluations are crazy. i get it. Right?

47:37.45
Andrew
Yeah.

47:37.78
Sean
like Like there's 140.

47:38.57
Andrew
And it's like genuinely hard to raise on like a traditional SAS, a trad SAS, if you will, uh, model, like, like the valuations just are not as good.

47:38.80
Sean
Yeah.

47:43.61
Sean
Yeah.

47:46.86
Sean
me

47:48.18
Andrew
And so like, if you aren't, if you can't convince VCs that you're an AI company, then you're, you're like valuation gets F compared to what you raised at a couple years ago.

47:48.55
Sean
there yeah

47:58.20
Andrew
it it is like, it's a weird fricking world right now.

48:00.97
Sean
yeah yeah um but yeah uh a lot of lot of that um

48:10.84
Sean
That's it. That's my, that's all. That's like a lot of RSA was like a lot of, lot of AI, lot of, um um, the, the, the other thing is that like, because of that and people are shipping features, like a lot of these products are starting to overlap because they're all going like full platform because they could just ship so many things all the time.

48:34.30
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

48:34.82
Sean
Um, they're starting, or we're starting to see a lot of overlap and also like the same things over and over again, which is, um, uh, which like, like in a way that's good, i feel like, because like the really interesting products will sort of shine.

48:41.01
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

48:51.02
Sean
And there was like some interesting, like,

48:53.34
Andrew
It's also been a problem in security for a while. Like you, everything, everything was either a SIM or like a set of like detection rules or like, um yeah, like a ah malware, you know, generator, like malware library or, um you know, or,

48:57.22
Sean
yeah, this just accelerated

49:05.42
Sean
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

49:18.72
Andrew
Yeah. Like a, vuln data set or something. Yeah.

49:27.57
Sean
But what was cool, what view the other fun part about RSA is I finally got Ben, our creative director. We like sat down and like I showed him Cloud Code and like and now he's like out here.

49:38.90
Andrew
Oh, sick.

49:39.68
Sean
Yeah, yeah. And now he's just...

49:40.34
Andrew
Your AI billing, your creative director.

49:42.04
Sean
yeah yeah yeah kind completely pulled this guy he like he was he was like look i made another thing was like don't talk about working my fucking agents right now um which is great which is great because i think we have a lot of like uh uh i'm um i'm trying to take as much client work off his plate so he can work a lot more like miscreants brand related things and like

49:42.24
Andrew
Damn.

50:08.51
Sean
like other things for us to grow. I think we need to diversify our, our streams of income.

50:15.92
Andrew
Are you doing the same? Are you also getting client work off of your plate?

50:20.43
Sean
Actually. Yeah. a little bit, a little bit, little bit.

50:22.20
Andrew
Okay. Yeah.

50:23.35
Sean
I mean, not a lot, not.

50:23.37
Andrew
I mean, you're you're on a podcast with me right now, so that's the first time in three months.

50:26.48
Sean
Yeah. That's like the first, Yeah, so so at least an hour out of the week. um Speaking of clients, I have to run. I'll wait every clock.

50:36.47
Andrew
All right, man, get out of here.

50:39.90
Sean
All right, good to see you.

50:40.08
Andrew
Great to talk to you.

50:41.43
Sean
right, peace, bye.

50:41.39
Andrew
Yeah. See you next quarter.

50:44.77
Sean
Bye.