What if the point of AI wasn't to make more, but to work less?

This is the thing everyone said AI should do that nobody's actually doing. All the capitalists want to use AI to make more money, not work less.

In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 15), Sean and Andrew dig into the team that used AI to move to a four-day week instead of squeezing out more, and the WordCamp pivot it mirrors: Andrew walking away from SEO autopilot to build content you're actually proud to publish. They cover why platform risk still burns big companies, the four pillars of content that survive after the AI tricks stop working, and why "what stays stable" beats every AEO hack.

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/

Transcript:

00:00.95
Sean
Hello.

00:02.69
Andrew
Hello, my friends.

00:04.02
Sean
How you doing? How was WordCamp?

00:04.96
Andrew
Good. WordCamp was... Fucking awesome. um interesting like This is my first WordCamp ever. WordCamp is definitely in decline.

00:14.91
Sean
ah

00:17.37
Andrew
At least Recamp US is in decline.

00:17.52
Sean
Oh. uh-oh

00:19.76
Andrew
Done. ah

00:21.27
Sean
is there Is there other WordCamp? Is that like WordCamp Belgium?

00:23.90
Andrew
They're all over the world.

00:24.30
Sean
or

00:25.14
Andrew
There's like WordCamp Europe, my... uh my one of my new friends that i made at the conference is going to word camp manila next week Um... It's ah yeah, they have them all over the world. And I think they're.

00:38.38
Andrew
They're still bigger. They're actually now bigger overseas than they are in in the US. which is interesting

00:45.15
Sean
That's it.

00:45.09
Andrew
um we

00:46.87
Sean
Sense.

00:47.60
Andrew
Yeah.

00:47.49
Sean
Ish. Maybe.

00:48.39
Andrew
Yeah.

00:48.20
Sean
I don't know.

00:48.90
Andrew
issue. Um,

00:49.85
Sean
Yeah.

00:50.63
Andrew
I think. we're from the the cheesemade that i got from people who our repeat attendees is that WordCamp US has been in decline since something happened two years ago. What what might have happened two years ago? I can't remember.

01:06.94
Andrew
Amen. any Any big drama in the in the WordPress space? that you can remember?

01:13.39
Sean
No. I block that out.

01:15.00
Andrew
fifty

01:15.04
Sean
From my memory. Um, Yeah, there was a, you know, there's... For some reason, a lot of people who are on WordPress. Um, complaining about something.

01:25.31
Sean
And it brought us a lot of Webflow customers. so

01:27.59
Andrew
Hell yeah. Let's go.

01:29.99
Sean
Um, uh,

01:33.65
Sean
Yeah. i'm I'm kind of curious. like like The shockwave that must have been across. I didn't realize there were so many word camps. So I wonder if like...

01:45.34
Sean
What happens in all those WordCamps, all the same, like... throughout that entire year that feels

01:51.35
Andrew
no I know.

01:51.62
Sean
You know?

01:52.74
Andrew
um I mean, I got a little bit from my my friends who've been going for years. Okay.

01:57.64
Sean
ahha

01:58.98
Andrew
Uh, But. Yeah, like WordCamp US used to be like 2 ,000 to 2 ,500 people. They also they scheduled it in Phoenix in August this year, which I think. a lot of people were like i think that's part of the reason it's not doing well although At the same time, in the back of my head, I was like Black Hat and Def Conner in August every year and fuck tons of people go.

02:18.45
Andrew
Um.

02:19.80
Sean
Yeah.

02:20.06
Andrew
So I don't know that that really impacted it. But yeah, this year was like. I think. one of my friends saw the registered attendee list, and it was 900 people. down from like 2 ,500 a few years ago.

02:33.16
Sean
Oh shit. God damn.

02:34.28
Andrew
Yeah.

02:35.81
Sean
Um.

02:36.57
Andrew
Not a great sign.

02:37.93
Sean
for For those not in. the web space. Um, Um,

02:46.43
Andrew
He's...

02:46.39
Sean
The... Do you want to, I don't know.

02:48.63
Andrew
I got, I got.

02:48.83
Sean
You're the expert now, so.

02:50.72
Andrew
So I got, I'm not an expert, but. All right. So one of the... original co-creators co-founders of wordpress um I got.

03:01.61
Andrew
I got yelled at by a friend, not yelled at, but like I got chastised by a friend for calling him the founder of WordPress. Someone was like. More like the forker of WordPress. um

03:10.74
Sean
Hell yeah.

03:14.01
Andrew
Um, Uh, Matt. Mullenweg? Is that his name? um Uh... Anyway. WordPress mat. um a couple years ago went Like, got really... pissy at at a Word can.

03:30.22
Andrew
during a keynote. Um, at WP Engine, who's like one of the largest WordPress hosts. and a competitor so like it's all complicated because like WordPress is WordPress is...

03:45.18
Andrew
a free open source tool. that is owned by a nonprofit. um and the WordPress trademark is owned by a nonprofit. Matt also owns... automatic which is a for-profit business that offer that owns wordpress .com a for-profit WordPress hosting service um and a bunch of other WordPress tools including WooCommerce and Pressable and some others.

04:08.67
Andrew
Um, and Um, Automatic. has a like perpetual license from WordPress .org, the nonprofit, to use the WordPress trademark.

04:20.96
Andrew
Um, And a couple years ago, he got mad at WP Engine, who's one of their biggest competitors, um who basically built their entire reputation on...

04:32.11
Andrew
Hey, your product kind of sucks. We're going to do it better and charge more for it. And people loved them for years and years. Um, I think some people have started to leave WP Engine. I don't know.

04:43.08
Andrew
what the state of the things is right now. But like for years and years, people loved WP Engine because they were just like rock solid. Awesome support. And like they charged a premium for it.

04:53.56
Sean
And WP Engine also owns... um the custom field the advanced custom fields plugin All right.

05:00.36
Andrew
Yes, they own a couple of like very successful WordPress plugins as well. And that got all pissy that they were like, using WP in their name. um that they even though like everyone in the wordpress community uses wp in their name Um,

05:16.26
Andrew
They were using WP in their name, and he was like, you're not contributing enough to open source. You're not contributing enough to WordPress .org. and

05:24.72
Sean
Open source. Oh, so the name. What I what i call my wallet.

05:28.52
Andrew
Yes.

05:29.19
Sean
Yeah.

05:28.86
Andrew
Yes. um And so he got all pissy and the big. thing for a little while it was just like a public fight it was like public cheese made public gossip with between him and like the WP and Jin team. And then...

05:43.81
Andrew
He like... revoked their access to the plugin store. um He like went in. End. moved their access and that like really broke trust with a lot of people because like um Yo.

05:56.61
Andrew
There was no reason... He didn't really have any ground to stand on. he Yeah. He... Shouldn't have. like that was sort of like overusing his power.

06:08.44
Andrew
in inside of WordPress. um And so. Yeah, that that really fractured things. and caused a lot of people to get freaked out about the future of wordpress and how stable it was and like end.

06:24.15
Andrew
A lot of people left WordPress because of it.

06:26.17
Sean
they I think they also... um, Because advanced custom fields is so popular. It's like one of them main things people use they

06:34.86
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

06:35.78
Sean
ah took away they forked it renamed it secure custom fields and yoinked all the ratings and things. and moved it to secure custom fields. Was it?

06:46.79
Sean
Do you remember this? am i

06:47.80
Andrew
I don't think I followed closely enough, so yeah, you you'll know better than I do.

06:48.94
Sean
Okay. Okay. i think i think something like that where like they basically took the rating from all of advanced custom fields and gave it to secure custom fields, the new like official WordPress version of it or something like that.

07:01.60
Sean
Um, which was like.

07:02.19
Andrew
That's really fucked.

07:03.62
Sean
Yeah. And then framework Webflow ended up getting a lot more revenue. So, you know.

07:07.65
Andrew
been

07:09.28
Sean
We we did have some clients like. Actually, now that I think of it, I think one of our One of our clients came specifically because they were on WP Engine. And.

07:20.71
Sean
like large client came Uh, Because they weren't a BB engine, they were like... We probably don't want to be a part of this. you know. like the like the aftermath of whatever happens here.

07:33.23
Sean
um

07:33.41
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

07:34.62
Sean
um So they. They migrated literally to Webflow. from that and like Yeah. That's pretty cool.

07:41.00
Andrew
I guess it's like... It's a very public example of how even when you're a large company. platform risk still exists and can.

07:49.34
Sean
Hmm.

07:50.43
Andrew
you know, obviously. The platform risk wasn't so great that WP Engine Like... You died or... Or... But it it definitely hurt both companies.

08:00.90
Sean
Totally. totally

08:02.69
Andrew
All because. Yeah. A rich founder got pissy that. He wasn't rich enough.

08:09.50
Sean
so So does Matt give a keynote at WordCamp every year?

08:13.22
Andrew
Matt gives the keynote the final keynote at WordCamp.

08:13.64
Sean
End.

08:15.92
Andrew
At least we're GIMP US. Every year is mad.

08:19.23
Sean
Okay.

08:19.48
Andrew
And.

08:19.95
Sean
How was this year?

08:20.41
Andrew
All right. Dude, it was a train wreck. It was... It was... do you most disorganized unprofessional keynote i have ever seen like i was like what is happening um

08:34.13
Sean
Cheers.

08:35.44
Andrew
it He's 25 minutes late. Um... So the keynote started 25 minutes late. um He comes in, brings out his laptop, and starts spends five minutes fiddling with the HDMI cord to like get it hooked up to the the PowerPoint. Advert. you know the screens so he can he can project his screen um And.

08:58.42
Andrew
um And then, like... It's just kind of like his ramblings of like what he thinks is important in WordPress and like half like he was his big reveal was that um WordPress profiles, which no one i don't know anyone who uses or cares about WordPress profiles his big reveal is that and They're moving from some long yeah URL to w .org slash your username.

09:25.45
Andrew
End.

09:25.67
Sean
Well.

09:26.38
Andrew
And he was like. Um... Would you? Like, sure, W .org is a cool domain. But, like... I don't think... It's like Stop trying to make fetch happen.

09:36.33
Andrew
You're not going to make WordPress profiles happen. Maybe in the WordPress community.

09:40.31
Sean
Dude, he has to make food.

09:41.56
Andrew
I don't know.

09:42.67
Sean
The WordPress social media. W.

09:46.33
Andrew
Yeah.

09:46.92
Sean
You got x .com and w .org.

09:47.54
Andrew
Um...

09:49.01
Sean
you know

09:49.96
Andrew
And then, like... Uh... It was just... painfully awkward watching. um Apparently, he changed. the whole thing like five minutes before he was supposed to go on so like his co-presenter in the fireside chat had no idea What?

10:07.88
Andrew
to expect. Um... ah And then... the you know he always takes audience questions and someone asked him about you know the you know as you know WordPress tries to like embrace AI like how WordPress can like how the wordpress community can think about the environment and like And then he it was basically. Like.

10:29.84
Andrew
I don't completely disagree with everything he said, but But it was just a very tone deaf response where he was basically like. all of the environmental claims about AI are overblown and like data centers are actually great and we should.

10:42.97
Andrew
he Like he talked about how. We should build libraries and data centers and like. treat data centers as like the new cathedrals and it's like Dude, tone-deaf as hell. to to Like.

10:54.93
Andrew
The... Like. oh actually data centers are beautiful and we should all appreciate them more um And so literally like a wave of people got up and left and like someone flipped him off on their way out.

11:06.43
Andrew
Um, And it was just...

11:08.23
Sean
Holy shit.

11:09.44
Andrew
It was just sad.

11:11.65
Sean
Okay, wait, wait, can we go back really quickly? Hold on

11:14.35
Andrew
Yeah.

11:14.49
Sean
I kind of love this idea of the Church of NVIDIA.

11:17.42
Andrew
I knew you were.

11:18.38
Sean
And you have.

11:19.03
Andrew
I knew you were going to love this.

11:19.00
Sean
Jensen, Jesus, Juan.

11:21.06
Andrew
I knew you were gonna love this.

11:25.08
Sean
I kind of love it. I kind of love Church of it. like maybe Yeah.

11:28.14
Andrew
YouTube and media.

11:31.17
Sean
um Yeah, you... you pray to your Patron Saint. Jensen Huang. The Pope.

11:37.03
Andrew
It was just incredibly tone deaf. And then like. Apparently this is... There have been password camps where it where people came up like five. minutes before the keynote and announced oh actually matt's not going to come out this year

11:51.58
Sean
Oh wow.

11:52.39
Andrew
and so apparently this is like not that new but it was just a especially train wrecky this year

11:57.45
Sean
I see. Let's see.

11:59.19
Andrew
So... Just wild. But... All of that said, all of the... Crazy founder drama aside. um WordCamp itself was...

12:10.69
Andrew
was really nice. Like you could kind of tell it was a little more subdued. There weren't quite as many side events as um you would expect for a conference its size. um But like the people we met were fantastic were really wonderful um made some, some real new friends, got a ton of feedback on the tool, we're like, we came off of it like buzzing with ideas for how we want to think about positioning

12:37.82
Andrew
and and all of this um and Yo. Just like. really, the community is still awesome. The WordPress community is still full of great people who really care and are really interesting and doing interesting stuff.

12:53.42
Andrew
Um... It's just... unfortunate that the fountain that the like the kind of figurehead of WordPress is. unfortunately. ah Bit of a... You know.

13:04.58
Andrew
Dick.

13:05.56
Sean
Yeah.

13:08.43
Sean
ah

13:10.25
Sean
Yeah. Interesting. Now that I think of it, I feel like Defcon... People were also saying it was a little bit quiet and subdued.

13:16.27
Andrew
Hmm.

13:16.23
Sean
Maybe there is like a

13:18.15
Andrew
Just a lull right now where people are...

13:19.50
Sean
Yeah. it's i mean It's a weird time. I don't know.

13:22.99
Andrew
It's a weird time, yeah. like

13:24.77
Sean
Yeah.

13:25.41
Andrew
a lot of people in the tech community have been laid off and

13:28.26
Sean
right

13:29.16
Andrew
um Yeah.

13:30.27
Sean
yeah

13:30.40
Andrew
Yeah, it might. Some of that might be contributing to the overall vibes. Um.

13:35.11
Sean
um So why do why do people...

13:35.12
Andrew
Yeah.

13:38.55
Sean
Why do people go to WordCamp?

13:41.14
Andrew
So... It was kind of fascinating. i was I was not really sure exactly what to expect. It was a... There were a lot of agency owners there. One friend I made was in house and he was like kind of disappointed.

13:53.31
Andrew
He was like, there's almost it feels like there's almost no one in house here. And so like everyone's everything's like kind of agency geared towards agencies, which like.

13:56.67
Sean
really

14:01.60
Andrew
was great for us because we were going hoping to talk to agency owners. um There were also a lot of vendors, like a lot of, even in the attendees, there were a lot of like plugin developers and which kind of makes sense, right?

14:15.07
Andrew
Because if you know WordPress, like so many WordPress agencies eventually built their own plugins or resell plugins or resell hosting, like.

14:16.87
Sean
Yeah.

14:23.38
Andrew
Much more than other ecosystems, I think. There's a lot of overlap between builders and vendors.

14:27.98
Sean
Yeah. Yep.

14:30.28
Andrew
Um... and so yeah there were like a couple of the like after parties we went to where it felt like everyone it was just vendors talking to vendors more than it was actually like um a whole lot of like builders and stuff

14:43.43
Sean
I see.

14:43.49
Andrew
um um But I mean, I think like... I think a lot of people still go. you know like agency owners aren't going to meet clients like there aren't really clients there.

14:57.30
Andrew
that you're going to find. and so It's a lot of people going, trying to You know, the classic, like... I want to learn about like. What's new in... And... you know, what kind of the the best agencies are doing new, doing differently. Let me learn about their setups and stuff.

15:15.11
Andrew
Um, And then I think it's a lot of people who are just like. kind of passionate about the community Um... And and. you know have been going to WordCamp for years and have friends and are going there to like sort of see their friends. and there's definitely Almost.

15:33.49
Andrew
All of the vendors in the... finger space in the um, vendor hall. where it felt like the vast majority were hosting providers. So there's a lot of like hosting providers going there trying to like.

15:47.79
Andrew
win over agencies.

15:50.59
Sean
Makes sense.

15:50.65
Andrew
and and sell to agencies.

15:52.00
Sean
Interesting.

15:53.37
Andrew
Um... And of course, Yoast was there. There weren't a whole lot of... There are a handful of plugins with with boots. But it definitely felt like the majority of the booths.

16:05.15
Andrew
way. We're like big hosting providers. I think part of that is the dynamic of the conference. it's a It costs $100 to go.

16:17.24
Andrew
It's one of the cheapest conferences, most accessible conferences I've ever seen.

16:19.16
Sean
nice nice

16:21.46
Andrew
And I think the way they do that is they charge a lot for sponsorships. Um.

16:26.07
Sean
Oh, that makes sense.

16:27.17
Andrew
Yeah. And so like the people who are going to have booths are generally going to be. bigger providers. you know It was like Google, WP Engine, Automatic, Kinsta.

16:37.43
Sean
ah wow

16:39.46
Andrew
Um... ah Yoast.

16:41.75
Sean
what is google What is Google doing it? A WordPress conference.

16:45.94
Andrew
So... Google has a couple of WordPress plugins, SiteKit and...

16:51.18
Sean
Oh yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

16:52.52
Andrew
Yeah, a couple of things that are like heavily used by the WordPress community. um And then I think... So I think for Google, it's... I guess it's about getting people like using google analytics and like it's part of that side of google is like hey

17:05.88
Sean
Yeah, yeah

17:09.66
Sean
developer, yeah.

17:09.70
Andrew
Use Google Analytics, use Search Console, use Tag Manager. Use Google Ads.

17:13.25
Sean
Yep.

17:13.95
Andrew
like that side of of of things.

17:18.05
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

17:18.79
Andrew
Would be my guess.

17:19.91
Sean
Okay. Makes sense.

17:21.06
Andrew
Yeah. Um, One of my favorite. Uh... So... We met the... Co-founders of Ninja Forms?

17:31.42
Sean
Mm.

17:31.86
Andrew
Um... ah one of the oldest, like most popular form plugins on WordPress. two of my new favorite people in the world. Two of my new favorite founders.

17:40.41
Sean
Wow.

17:40.52
Andrew
They are delightfully weird and quirky and... bike. You know, they were there. not trying to sell anyone but just because like they used to be like kind of celebrities in the wordpress space and then they kind of stopped going to word camps and like um They had families and they just got, I think, kind of tired of the... of the the hustle and so they're now like kind of coming back to wordpress like hey let's like reconnect with the community and like see what the community cares about and like make sure we're

18:10.13
Andrew
we're sort of interacting with the community again. um And they're just. Two of the, they live in Cleveland, Tennessee.

18:17.88
Sean
Nice.

18:17.97
Andrew
um They had a team of 16. I think that includes them.

18:20.59
Sean
oh

18:22.15
Andrew
Um, They... are like they think about business the exact same way I do which is like Bye. This business exists to try to make. the lives of our team.

18:33.49
Andrew
as good as possible. and make life easier for our customers and then create like a great life for our team. um So, like, one of the guys is was like.

18:44.65
Andrew
Uh, So it's Kevin and James are the co-founders. Kevin has this thick southern accent and it's like telling me he's like an atheist a socialist and uh but they met and started working on this stuff. because they were Both. preachers at a ah a non-denominational church.

19:05.37
Andrew
Um, And now Kevin's like an atheist and a socialist and...

19:05.65
Sean
Nice.

19:10.51
Andrew
Um,

19:11.41
Sean
Okay.

19:11.54
Andrew
and uh they're the first team i've met who they were like We're going. they were they were sort of going through a slump in End. In ninja forms. and So. And they were just sort of thinking about, like, how do we make our team's lives better? And all this AI stuff was happening. And they were like, all right.

19:31.87
Andrew
We are going to... Um... Like. AI should make our lives better. If it's not, what is it good for? So we're going to give our teams like the best AI tooling we can.

19:44.37
Andrew
and then we're going to give them a four hour a four-day work week. Um. and like tried to get done and four days what we used to get done in five days and but like not expect people to do more give them a four-day work week so they've now gone down to a four-day work week It's like the first team I've heard of who's actually said.

20:00.78
Andrew
rather than trying to do more. Like. Just do more of this.

20:03.85
Sean
this feels like the This feels like the exact opposite of what ClickUp just did.

20:04.76
Andrew
screen

20:08.33
Sean
um Have you heard about this?

20:09.79
Andrew
No, what did ClickUp do?

20:10.73
Sean
ClickUp laid off a bunch of people. And then said we are now upping salaries. to up to a million dollars a year or something like that so basically like if you can

20:18.57
Andrew
Oh they're going that route, yeah.

20:20.07
Sean
If you can like increase your productivity a hundred X.

20:23.49
Andrew
Yeah.

20:23.36
Sean
We'll just pay you 100x. um the money And this feels like a... This feels like a nice like. breather from that You know?

20:33.88
Andrew
This is like the the... promise of AI, right? This is the thing that everyone said AI should do that no one's actually doing because all the

20:37.38
Sean
Right.

20:41.34
Andrew
capitalists want. to just... use AI to make more money.

20:45.46
Sean
Right.

20:45.77
Andrew
Um, not work less. And like, this is the first company I've heard who's actually committed is had the discipline to say no.

20:50.67
Sean
All right. well

20:52.55
Andrew
We're gonna end. we're going to work less.

20:55.01
Sean
right Damn. I gotta to be honest.

20:56.88
Andrew
It's super cool.

20:57.32
Sean
I don't think I've ever... That's such a like good frame break you know because if you told me that like how would you use ai to work less i'd be like i don't I don't know. I guess you just like.

21:09.93
Sean
Don't do that much in eight hours a day. four or five days a week. i Don't think I would have. come up with. just take Just have an extra weekend day. which is pretty cool. Um,

21:21.52
Andrew
Yeah, it's red.

21:22.00
Sean
So are you gonna do that?

21:22.03
Andrew
and they were

21:23.01
Sean
Are you going to do that at Metamonster?

21:24.65
Andrew
ah We... Can't afford to do that yet.

21:26.68
Sean
yeah Me too, me too.

21:27.87
Andrew
Yes.

21:28.31
Sean
yeah

21:28.84
Andrew
They had the most successful, one of the most successful form plugins on the... one of the largest CMSs in the world. and then said, okay, now we can do this.

21:39.46
Sean
Yeah fair enough

21:40.93
Andrew
um

21:40.50
Sean
Fair enough.

21:41.97
Andrew
Yeah, we we need to... I would love to do that eventually. um although So the way I've always thought about like taking extra time off I think there's kind of two ways that companies sometimes.

21:53.11
Andrew
do this the companies who really care One is like we go down to a four day work week. The other. is Um, We give you. Fuck tons of vacation vacation time. They already give people a lot of vacation time.

22:04.54
Andrew
People start with 30 days of vacation time. when they started.

22:06.97
Sean
Yeah.

22:07.58
Andrew
it. at angiforms. um But... Like I always wanted to do the sabbatical program. That's been my dream. for for so long. um And so...

22:18.50
Andrew
I think I would. Try to take those. Yum. Those days that extra day off every year. I mean is that Is that 50 days off a year?

22:29.42
Andrew
Something like that. 50 days. off extra a year.

22:35.13
Sean
I think so yeah. Right?

22:37.09
Andrew
Roughly.

22:37.80
Sean
i mean i mean probably like 48 because you have like random days that end up on a yeah yeah It's like 45.

22:37.83
Andrew
Yeah. great

22:40.76
Andrew
holidays and stuff.

22:43.18
Sean
I don't know. I mean it's...

22:44.23
Andrew
Yeah.

22:46.36
Sean
Still. A lot.

22:47.75
Andrew
Yeah.

22:47.81
Sean
It's yeah.

22:48.04
Andrew
So what if you gave people two months off a year? It's like here's.

22:50.69
Sean
Yeah.

22:51.89
Andrew
You can say, hey, we're going to work five days a week. But we're going to. Bye. do the sabbatical thing where every year someone gets a two-month sabbatical.

23:01.36
Sean
Right. Right.

23:03.07
Andrew
Yeah. um Or a one-month sabbatical or whatever.

23:06.19
Sean
Right. That's pretty sweet.

23:06.88
Andrew
And I. I've always personally wanted the Spadicle because I want to go do long hikes.

23:11.16
Sean
Right right right right Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that...

23:13.20
Andrew
a

23:14.84
Sean
the one thing the difference is like a continuity plan right if you're if someone's out for a month it's very different than being out for And. Extra day a week.

23:22.14
Andrew
yeah Yeah, it's a lot harder to do the sabbatical thing.

23:22.94
Sean
Yeah.

23:25.98
Andrew
but

23:25.51
Sean
Yeah.

23:27.11
Andrew
Um... But also... as my friend Scott Woods would say. it forces you to build your company in a way that you're not dependent on any one person which makes your company more resilient anyway.

23:38.36
Sean
Yes. Nice.

23:40.53
Andrew
It's just harder. Um... So yeah. Super cool, guys. i And they were so generous with their time. They like spent a ton of time talking to us and they were like. They were like.

23:50.84
Andrew
We know it's a grind right now. We know it's hard. Like. We spin. you know. It took us... Yo. a year to go from a thousand to two thousand or whatever in monthly revenue.

24:03.27
Sean
Gotcha.

24:04.69
Andrew
And so they were like, just keep at it.

24:05.65
Sean
Wow.

24:06.55
Andrew
you're You're going to be okay. Like, keep at it. Don't give up. They were like, we wish we'd had cheerleaders back then. And so we we want to be your cheerleaders now. And I was just like.

24:15.69
Sean
Wow.

24:16.39
Andrew
These are my new favorite people. Um...

24:19.98
Sean
Um, Holy shit Peace.

24:23.54
Andrew
Yeah. just the kindest humans yeah um and we met a bunch of people like that we met

24:26.34
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

24:28.97
Andrew
um This guy Brady, who runs a marketing agency. um he He met this, like... Young kid. He was at. WordCamp Philippines met. a young kid there who was like hey i'm thinking about taking a call center job, what do you think I should do?

24:46.09
Andrew
And it was like $8 an hour. And he's like. I'll just pay you $8 an hour to start your own agency. um And so now he's partnered with this. this guy on like building this agency in the Philippines.

24:55.14
Sean
of Love it.

24:57.19
Andrew
on

24:57.99
Sean
That's awesome.

24:59.02
Andrew
End.

24:59.06
Sean
i fine

24:59.88
Andrew
we met like this guy alexi who works for um Works for Travel Portland. dot com Which is, do you know what a DMO is? Um.

25:10.35
Sean
Wait, yes. Yes, I don't know why I know. it's like a like It's like a travel agency that's like government funded or something like that, right?

25:19.98
Andrew
Yeah.

25:20.71
Sean
Yeah.

25:20.45
Andrew
destination marketing organization.

25:22.25
Sean
Yes, the Phoenix one.

25:22.78
Andrew
It's a good.

25:24.14
Sean
It's crazy by the way.

25:25.75
Andrew
Is it?

25:26.39
Sean
yeah Yes.

25:26.70
Andrew
That might be why WordCamp was in Phoenix this year.

25:28.45
Sean
Because... um crazy and not a good way yeah yeah crazy in like a bribery type of way So what?

25:31.73
Andrew
Oh, no. no Oh shit.

25:36.39
Sean
Yeah.

25:37.08
Andrew
Um... so ah These are basically, yeah, they're they're typically nonprofits that are sometimes...

25:41.80
Sean
yeah

25:44.57
Andrew
public private partnership kind of things this one was started by the portland like hotel association or something to try to get more people to come to portland so that they could

25:51.43
Sean
Wow.

25:54.53
Andrew
you know make more money. from hotels and stuff

25:56.68
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

25:57.60
Andrew
And then Portland has a hotel tax. And so then it also like benefits the city in theory. Um, Travelportland .com gets like a million organic visit or a million visitors a month.

26:09.64
Andrew
to the website which is awesome. And so he was telling me all about their WordPress setup and like what they do. um and everything.

26:16.38
Sean
right

26:17.44
Andrew
and um yeah just met a ton of like really kind interesting people um That is... dude who's 22 years old based out of Atlanta. Two. um Like.

26:29.73
Andrew
I was talking to him getting feedback on Metamonster and he was like had more product discipline? Then... He's never built a product and yet seemed to think like a product manager more than almost anyone I've ever met.

26:41.82
Andrew
He was like. I was talking to him about features we're thinking about building, and he's like, Do you feel like? what you have now. is world-class like it's it can't be improved on and I was like no obviously like there's still room for improvement and things like.

26:55.08
Andrew
then don't build new features. I was like, God damn it, Aiden. How are you 22?

27:02.48
Sean
I hate you. Wow, I hate people like that. And and and the fact that I love the people like that, but...

27:04.61
Andrew
you Yeah! I was like, holy crap, man.

27:07.85
Sean
Fuck. um What an incredibly like Rick Rubin. Like... A type of... Oh. type of experience.

27:19.49
Sean
You know?

27:19.53
Andrew
Yeah.

27:21.37
Sean
That's great. that's like I feel like those are the Wow. Um... Yeah, I feel like those are just the types of like... really obvious things that someone just needs to say to your face Eat humble pie.

27:34.60
Sean
you Yeah. That's awesome.

27:36.33
Andrew
You wish that. Um,

27:37.81
Sean
but

27:38.55
Andrew
Okay, so I know we've been we've been talking about WordCamp for like half an hour already, um but can I give you... the pitch for the vision for Meta Monster. post-work camp.

27:48.16
Sean
Yes. Is it world-class features? Okay, sweet.

27:50.45
Andrew
Basically. Yeah.

27:52.30
Sean
Great. Hit me. Go.

27:53.69
Andrew
Okay. So we went into WordCamp. And I was really thinking in my head, like, in order to compete. you know with the adaptifies the you know there's this whole class of like these put your SEO on autopilot kind of products that have cropped up over the over the last year or two and they all do kind of the exact same thing.

28:09.40
Sean
Mm-hmm.

28:14.13
Andrew
Um. And they lots of them seem to be making lots of money. They all do like automated backlinks, automated content, just like. rank out AI content. Da da da da da.

28:25.58
Andrew
And like... i I don't. Think. the like pure AI content works for. Like in the long term, I think it My guess is it skyrockets your rankings for a little while and then crashes your rankings eventually.

28:40.82
Andrew
um

28:40.95
Sean
That's the mountain.

28:42.62
Andrew
Yeah, the mountain that we're seeing. from all of the SEO influencers. um End. Um... But I went into WordCamp like I think we've got to figure out our answer to this we've got to have some level of feature parity where it's like okay how do we Do AI generated content in a way that we feel good about that feels high quality? How do we do?

29:08.31
Andrew
Backlinks help people with backlinks and stuff in a way that we feel good about And I came out of WordCamp. And I don't want to do any of it. I don't wanna do any of that. I want to lean.

29:19.76
Andrew
even harder. into Um. We help you. Create really high quality content. with humans. like We help you create.

29:33.65
Andrew
And... Really good content. for humans. that ranks and that you're going to feel good about. Um, And I'm thinking of like. just doubling down on content analysis and like content briefs.

29:47.89
Andrew
Um, which are the two like two big features that we're focused on right now. um And I. I'm thinking of our content analysis in any way which is like We've been talking about how we do quant...

30:01.14
Andrew
content analysis. qualitative, holistic content analysis. I'm now thinking about four pillars of content analysis. There's... um Have you covered what people are looking for in the SERP? Have you covered what's already working in the SERP?

30:14.06
Andrew
Have you added something new and unique? to the CERP. Have you added something new that doesn't exist in the other content? um Is your writing high quality? And have you covered the SEO fundamentals?

30:26.94
Andrew
Most people out there who do content analysis They care about the SEO fundamentals. And have you covered what's already in the SERP? Have you copied what everyone else is doing? I haven't seen anyone doing...

30:38.77
Andrew
Have you added something unique? And like. Every all the big players are telling us like That. Eat is what matters. expertise. authority. Trust.

30:51.66
Andrew
It's like the human experiences. The human. the The net new, are you providing something net new? and yes there's tricks there's tricks there's stuff that will work short term um brady the guy from Bantala Marketing that we were talking to.

31:07.30
Andrew
had a great Um. Had a great line where he's like um, I know there's all this stuff that works right now. in AI search, but what is going to be stable.

31:18.45
Andrew
And I love that idea of like. What is going to be stable? And you know what's going to be stable? Building good content that covers the fundamentals and offer something new that other people aren't offering.

31:29.69
Sean
Mm hmm.

31:30.74
Andrew
And so like. Imagine that like the future of the Metamonster. content analysis is like there's a uniqueness score of like Are you adding something new? to the conversation.

31:44.20
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think like the... the tagline of SEO content you're proud to publish is. Like. Thanks, thanks, thanks. thanks thanks thanks um Yes.

31:55.75
Andrew
That's... God. god damn it Sean we've been trying to like wordsmith this for the last like 24 hours and we can't figure it out

31:58.41
Sean
Look.

32:03.33
Andrew
um And SEO content you're proud to publish is so fucking good.

32:09.22
Sean
thanks Thanks, thanks. I'm good at my job sometimes. um

32:13.43
Andrew
Damn it, John.

32:13.59
Sean
I mean I think i think that makes i mean that I think that makes sense to me. i think like Like. Like I think this idea of like rallying against Slop.

32:25.28
Sean
is something a lot of people do.

32:25.64
Andrew
Yes.

32:27.09
Sean
But. rallying against law, but still using AI. Is like. Wait, like... like I think the conversation online is very black and white, right?

32:35.89
Andrew
Yeah.

32:36.14
Sean
It's either you're forced, slop like, just like... through throw through the slop cannon or Uh, Yeah. you know, like. be against slop content.

32:45.54
Andrew
mm-hmm

32:45.73
Sean
But it's not about, like... Like ultimately, it's not actually about like what tools you use to create it. It's just the fact that what like. Is it good? Has nothing to do with. how you made the thing.

32:57.78
Andrew
Yes.

32:58.15
Sean
Um, And there's many layers to good. that that that's goat that goes past just like pure taste as well in my opinion but um also so really this is one really funny thing At least it was really funny to me when you said there are four things I thought you were going to tell me.

33:02.24
Andrew
Yes.

33:13.54
Sean
E-E-E-A-T.

33:14.81
Andrew
Heh heh.

33:16.05
Sean
And I think you kind of basically told me. E-E-A-T. But I think broken down in like a... like ah Like a different way. I think what's also really interesting is the uniqueness angle. If you watch the A. ahrefs video of the i forget what his name is but the guy who talks about like okay let's try to rank top 10 who talks about like How to.

33:38.45
Sean
do it and like gets his stuff up the top 10 I think he literally says that. and He's like... Okay, there's like 10 articles. They all say these things I'm going to add this other stuff to it.

33:50.57
Sean
Um, And I think, i think like... Yeah, I mean I like it. I think that's like more strategic than it is like quick SEO wins and.

34:01.58
Sean
and whatever. um It's better than like changing the 2025 to 2026. for like a extra freshness score. uh,

34:14.35
Sean
I'm not sure you're building like a meta monster anymore, by the way.

34:19.11
Andrew
Yeah.

34:19.63
Sean
Okay.

34:19.83
Andrew
yeah

34:20.42
Sean
Okay.

34:20.90
Andrew
we're We're not building a metamonster, but... um

34:24.16
Sean
Which ah I don't think is a problem. I think building a... an AI version of ClearScope is like a... Killer. i I don't know if that's like. that feels reductive but i feel like Like so like a writing tool like that Um,

34:40.49
Sean
Seems interesting. It feels...

34:42.41
Andrew
Yeah.

34:43.63
Sean
who else Who else does something like that, though? Because I feel like... We're getting into content marketing now. Um, So.

34:51.37
Andrew
But we're still I think we're still thinking about selling this to. to small agencies for right now. um

34:58.74
Sean
Mm hmm.

34:59.76
Andrew
ah Jade was talking about like. uh an h1 that says something like... the content optimization tool for agencies who care about their clients.

35:12.31
Sean
Mm-hmm.

35:12.22
Andrew
Um... which is like And. And like leaning into.

35:16.81
Sean
Love it.

35:18.30
Andrew
leaning into the the heartstrings aspect of like you know, Creating SEO slob. doesn't serve your clients. It doesn't showcase their expertise. It doesn't build trust with their with their customers it doesn't It doesn't feel good. and so like for the people who care about their clients and like really want to do Yep.

35:42.16
Andrew
care about their clients more than they care about clicks and like you know. um we we we talked about two like a tagline or in each one that's something like The content optimization tool for agencies that care about more than just rankings.

35:56.71
Andrew
Um...

35:56.92
Sean
million

35:57.74
Andrew
Other than that just kind of makes it sound like we don't help you with rankings at all.

36:00.90
Sean
Yeah. yeah

36:01.81
Andrew
um

36:02.14
Sean
i love I love like four agencies that care about you. their clients i i think i don't think that's an h1 i think that's like a Near the social proof. side right right like for agencies that care about their clients and then like

36:10.02
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

36:14.25
Sean
quote, quotequ quote, Um,

36:15.88
Andrew
I like that yeah.

36:17.33
Sean
Yeah. Sweet.

36:19.67
Andrew
Yeah, that's cool.

36:20.90
Sean
But is this a content so like

36:21.03
Andrew
Um,

36:23.47
Sean
Is this content optimization or is this net new content?

36:28.01
Andrew
So...

36:29.57
Andrew
If you think about like the clear scope. Um...

36:33.63
Andrew
Content optimization is like the best name I've found for the category so far and like I still think about it as like... The grading system needs content to grade. Um...

36:45.31
Andrew
There's also... You know, we do have now a content brief feature. And one of the things we added to our content briefs. that I haven't seen other people doing is Um, is a uniqueness.

36:57.71
Sean
Hmm.

36:57.63
Andrew
section where it's like what can you add here's the here's the h1 h2 based on the serp

37:01.41
Sean
Hmm.

37:03.19
Andrew
Um, Uh, But then here's. here's some like questions, some things to think about for like, what can you add that's unique? And we've even talked about. adding questions since we're targeting agencies primarily adding questions that Um.

37:17.63
Andrew
That. Um. adding questions that you can use for to ask it's like here's things to ask your your client. Here's things to ask your client to like build this content out.

37:30.68
Andrew
Um. And you can imagine that we could start to, in the future, automate more and more of this. and And so yes, do more net new content creation. Um,

37:41.81
Andrew
But for now, I'm still primarily thinking of it as like content optimization, content creating content. you know But maybe that's wrong. I don't know. um We're...

37:53.62
Sean
Mm hmm.

37:53.69
Andrew
We're still like trying to like. We still want to start by selling to the people who are already using and loving Meta Monster, which is like. It's Jade. it's miscreants It's it's Hello of SEO. It's miscreants. It's...

38:06.37
Andrew
Um... It's N. Um... Yo, it's... the independent marketing. Um. you know, sort of general purpose marketing consultant.

38:16.74
Andrew
you know, it's it's these people. Um... And so... Yeah, I don't know. I'm still thinking of it as content optimization for right now, but Um... but yeah maybe it does become less and less of that and we're still going to have the like kind of The meta.

38:33.55
Andrew
tools in the background too we're just story is about. content and then it's like oh and we can help you with

38:43.58
Andrew
with the metadata

38:48.28
Sean
I'm trying to think about like

38:50.25
Sean
I'm trying to think about like how we would. Use like as an agency how we would like use it and or like fit it into our workflows. um,

39:02.30
Sean
Like I'm trying to like. I think I'm like mentally stuck on we would use it. i don't think this is a bad thing i i just don't know this is like the line of what you're thinking is like

39:09.81
Andrew
Yeah. No, this is great. This is helpful.

39:14.77
Sean
I...

39:16.70
Sean
Yeah, okay, so like One way we would use it is with... an existing client that we've migrated content and they want an SEO. Like... audit slash whatever and usually seo audits are very technical right it's like Do you have schema? and Do you have alt text or whatever? um but in this case we're at auditing their seo their content for SEO.

39:42.50
Sean
ah rankability. Um, And then in this case, we're offering like rewrites to. to all of that.

39:53.49
Sean
um Which can get like ah maybe like a little bit contentious, so I think. Um, So I think that's where like that world-class feature needs to be. Um,

40:06.90
Sean
uh, separately I mean, separately, it would be like a literal content writing service. um for seo which like like yeah like a content writing service which Um,

40:22.31
Sean
Which I don't think is a bad thing. um Like... I feel like that's like the most.

40:29.78
Sean
Obvious. Like we're we're a web design agency that also sells marketing services. So like it makes sense for us that we. we would use it i'm trying to think like um,

40:41.98
Sean
like traditional like Webflow agencies that don't do that, would they?

40:46.42
Sean
Like. Yeah, how would they would like package it. To sell.

40:50.67
Andrew
Yes.

40:51.63
Sean
Mm hmm.

40:52.29
Andrew
I think for... um So... like the three categories of of agencies that we sell to. Maybe there's a fourth here.

41:03.35
Andrew
um I don't know yet, but the three categories are like. Okay, your general purpose marketing agencies who offer SEO services. Okay.

41:09.73
Sean
Mm hmm.

41:10.96
Andrew
So yeah, they offer this as part of their ongoing SEO services. their content creation.

41:14.43
Sean
Yep.

41:15.78
Andrew
content writing or content optimization. Um... Then there's um There's... jades the the small seo agencies okay this is purpose built for Jade so she can yeah She can come in, do her SEO fundamentals.

41:31.92
Andrew
get the page titles, the H1s, all of that. in place. And then she does. ongoing we optimize one to two pages a month And so. I can do that. datatadadada Um...

41:44.80
Andrew
And some of her clients pay extra for. net new content okay so if you can use content briefs and the content greeting system to like to provide guard rails for that.

41:55.66
Andrew
that content writing service. And maybe in the future, there'll be some. content generation kind of stuff. Um... Um, And then...

42:06.08
Andrew
There's web design agencies. Hmm. Who? So there's there's web design agencies who don't touch SEO, don't touch content. They're like, give me the content. I put the content in. Okay, you're not going to be a MetaMonster customer. That's fine.

42:18.50
Andrew
Um, Then there's web design agencies. Who? Um. their clients are asking them for seo they don't want to do ongoing content they work project based but they They want to give clients a website that is...

42:33.49
Andrew
where everything that's... Sort of there. is SEO optimized. Okay, cool. you can use Metamonster to Create page titles, meta descriptions, and then make sure your content.

42:45.07
Andrew
the content that you're working on with your clients. is SEO optimized, is ready to go. Um... um and is unique and valuable. And. and adding something to the conversation.

42:57.24
Andrew
Cool. Um... Uh, And then there's the web design agencies like you all who offer ongoing marketing services. And so for you all, it's like, OK, cool, we can.

43:08.65
Andrew
Use Metamonster to like make sure we've got our titles.

43:11.55
Sean
Yeah.

43:11.40
Andrew
our fundamentals covered. and then this can be something we use in our ongoing

43:16.23
Sean
Yeah, like an add-on.

43:16.37
Andrew
Sorry.

43:16.96
Sean
yeah

43:17.44
Andrew
Yeah.

43:18.52
Sean
Um...

43:20.33
Andrew
So it is we've got these kind of different ICPs, but they all... fit into like the This. you know. one to 20 person agency.

43:31.54
Andrew
That. that offers some amount of SEO. support.

43:36.88
Sean
i like it

43:37.26
Andrew
moments that does and i think the key is like they It's people who Yo. whether they're web designers marketers or SEOs They are marketing agencies. They're not.

43:49.72
Andrew
They're not pure technical SEO agencies. They're not. You know pure web design web dev their marketing agencies.

43:58.53
Sean
Yeah.

43:58.85
Andrew
whatever their core service is.

44:01.23
Sean
Uh... Yeah, I mean I like it I think you know, the thing that. I think the thing that everyone wants to buy right now is, and no one.

44:13.62
Sean
No one like immediately knows how to like like professionally also in-house is like how do i write for aeo

44:21.79
Andrew
Yeah.

44:21.100
Sean
Um, And... Yeah. I think like. If anything, the strategy. Because it's the route one easiest idea is.

44:34.67
Sean
Like... to rank for aeo go for breath and just send it through the slop cannon like a million faq pages and all this sort of stuff so we try to cover as much and get citations. but Right? Uniqueness had us. has to do with what you're saying. Cause like.

44:49.34
Sean
If you're... and AI. bought you look at the top 10 you're pulling out you know. all this like whatever sort of stuff and then Like.

45:00.03
Sean
The one that has unique content is the thing that's going to get. you know. added into it so

45:06.54
Andrew
yeah

45:06.95
Sean
Cool. Are you going to?

45:08.05
Andrew
And I think...

45:09.40
Sean
Good.

45:10.10
Andrew
I think on that too, where we're going to try to build our message is like. is writing content that has the fundamentals covered.

45:21.41
Andrew
So like, how do you show up in... in AI search. first show up in search. then Yo. Make sure you add something. Make sure you have the fundamentals covered so that bots can easily like crawl and and parse your content.

45:36.19
Sean
Mm hmm.

45:36.50
Andrew
And then... make sure you're adding something valuable and unique. And like. There's all the tricks of like chunking and FAQs and summarizations and all this stuff.

45:47.73
Andrew
And like. you know we can make suggestions around some of those things and and maybe we even have Yum. An SEO pillar and an AEO pillar, whatever. You know.

45:59.29
Andrew
um um where we can give you suggestions on some of those things but in general i think like a lot of people Like. This guy I keep going back to this conversation I had with Brady where he was like I was dreading when you all were going to tell me about AEO because I just believe that like so much of the crap people spew. for AEO right now.

46:20.80
Andrew
is not going to last He's like, what are the things I can do that will be stable? End. And I just think like. the AI agent. the eight AI systems are getting smarter and smarter every day.

46:33.10
Sean
Mm hmm.

46:33.30
Andrew
up there. Like. these tricks these hacks that work now aren't going to work for a year from now.

46:41.05
Sean
Yeah, I mean... ah literally we're seeing that right like It's like the Wild West. of seo of like let's do listicles because that's working and then it stops working and now you have and you get punished and it's this constant like Loop. And like ultimately just good content will never be punished because.

47:00.07
Sean
I mean I hope. but

47:01.45
Andrew
I hope to.

47:01.56
Sean
Good content should. Um,

47:03.25
Andrew
The thing they're building towards, the thing they're trying to create.

47:06.49
Sean
Right.

47:06.64
Andrew
is a system that's better at identifying the best content for the user.

47:10.09
Sean
right Right, right. Um... Cool. Does this mean you're going to build a text editor?

47:19.30
Andrew
We have a text editor.

47:20.77
Sean
No, but but like... like a You know last time we were talking about, like... building like a full like feature rich like full-on text editor.

47:31.26
Andrew
So this is where, this is, I don't. We have a dck text editor. We're going to continue to try to make it better. But I think we're also going to try to meet people where they are. So.

47:41.63
Sean
I see.

47:42.22
Andrew
We have an API available right now. um The next step is we're going to have an MCP available. So if you do your editing and content creation inside of Cloud. Great.

47:52.48
Andrew
you can now use MetaMonster to Generate your briefs. and grade the content you're running through. Claude um And... Yeah, etc, e etc.

48:03.81
Andrew
Um. If. Um... Uh, Um... Then I think the next things we're thinking about are like how to be where people already are So.

48:17.100
Andrew
I'm thinking about like, okay, do we bring the recommendation engine to... the WordPress. ah the WordPress page editor. Do we bring it to Google Docs? Do we bring it to Webflow?

48:29.64
Andrew
Um... Do we bring it to just like where teams are already working on content? um and like yeah we'll have the the MetaMonster editor as an as an option for the teams who want that.

48:42.27
Andrew
Um. But I think like... I wanna be where people already are.

48:47.37
Sean
Do you see like the experience to be kind of a little bit more like grammarly? If it was in there. No, you have like Webflow. You can do like Webflow plugins for just... content as well because like there's people that feel like yoast

48:58.06
Andrew
Yeah.

49:01.43
Sean
a Yoast-like experience too. um And yeah, like Yoast and ClearScope and WordPress. R. like very integrated plugins right where you can see it so

49:11.06
Andrew
mm-hmm Yeah.

49:13.47
Sean
Yeah. Yeah no I think that's a smart idea.

49:15.100
Andrew
I would prefer that level of experience.

49:16.22
Sean
Cool. Yeah. Makes sense.

49:20.94
Andrew
Yeah.

49:20.72
Sean
Cool. Sick. Um, Well, cool. Exciting. I'm a little, I have like one. Concern in the back of my head

49:33.59
Andrew
What is it?

49:36.00
Sean
um My one concern is whether or not this is like a tar pit. idea. you know, like it's.

49:44.52
Andrew
Tell me more.

49:46.52
Sean
Um...

49:50.24
Sean
like AI for writing. I guess it's just like. I don't know. i don't I feel like it's like... Okay. you know there's there's like a list of like so there's not like on a definitive list or anything but Like.

50:03.16
Sean
Like right every every founder builds like a hangout app. at some point. Um, um And it becomes like, like, it's a great idea that everyone wants. It becomes like a tarpon idea where you sink a bunch of money and time into and it.

50:15.46
Sean
is a whole. nothing burger. A lot of memory startups are like this as well, supposedly. um People are saying this is like. Also... said tar pit idea.

50:28.25
Sean
Um... I don't know what it necessarily defines something to be a tarpid idea. or the what the like the rules are. But. Um...

50:39.88
Sean
and and And I don't know how much of this is like. played by like personal bias because like I think I showed you like. sadie before which was like which got into like content writing and stuff Um...

50:51.66
Sean
Um... ah which we've shut down to use like a separate friends, like AI. social media. tool. Um,

51:03.16
Sean
I don't know. I don't. I don't have like a good, like, it's it's like a it's like a concern in the back of my head, but. You know.

51:10.68
Andrew
a yeah i mean It's a concern in the back of my head. of like How much time and energy have we put into this? How much more time and energy are we going to put into this?

51:18.36
Sean
Right.

51:18.75
Andrew
Um... but Yeah, it's also it's really interesting to me that You seem to be thinking of Metamonster totally differently when... win. You know based on the way I'm talking about this and like to me.

51:32.46
Andrew
This is like not a big pivot. This is just a doubling down on our current positioning like we're already a content optimization tool

51:35.70
Sean
I see.

51:40.06
Andrew
We're already. Like.

51:41.92
Sean
Mm hmm.

51:42.42
Andrew
You're in SEO content optimization tool for agencies right now, and it's just doubling down on like On like what what? is unique about our Take on content optimization versus other content. other people's take.

51:55.44
Andrew
And i'm I'm, like, trying to stay out of, like... Of. AI building an AI writer. And I'm like, no. We're just... supporting your human writers.

52:06.74
Andrew
and with tools to like cover the fundamentals. and then make sure they're like they're really building world-class content.

52:16.20
Sean
Yeah. um For the record, I don't think you need like a optimize button. and inside of. Or like, like. like rewrite my entire blog post based on these things, but although I do think that like a user pattern you might see is ah SEOs.

52:33.72
Sean
dragging the the the like Feedback.

52:37.67
Andrew
so we already have like the recommendations we have you can you can select as many as you want and click

52:37.72
Sean
and

52:43.00
Andrew
generate your draft and we'll generate your draft based on

52:43.15
Sean
I see. Okay.

52:46.40
Andrew
those recommendations.

52:46.61
Sean
I just have it. Okay, well, I just haven't, I haven't tried it. i didn't Um, i'm a new user, I guess. Um...

52:54.64
Sean
Yeah, I think. I think what you're saying is fair. I think um I think my perception of Metamonster is very much like... Screaming frog in the cloud.

53:04.63
Andrew
Yeah.

53:04.87
Sean
um or like the value of the team is.

53:06.24
Andrew
where we started. Yeah.

53:07.68
Sean
Right. right and And the value that the team has gotten. out of it. Has been like. Screaming frog in the cloud. So I don't know maybe this is a matter of

53:17.45
Andrew
Interesting.

53:17.46
Sean
Needing to. read some release notes and try some new things on our side. Um, Yeah. Yeah.

53:28.56
Andrew
Yes.

53:28.47
Sean
Look, regardless regardless, I think i think like... the The promise of a tool that... helps produce content. The promise of a product that helps.

53:40.24
Sean
produce content. that. Like... where we can still get the efficiencies of AI. without the like degraded content quality.

53:52.13
Sean
of. AI. pure ai writing is like fundamentally good. you know, that Going back to like promises of. what AI is supposed to do for us. I think that's...

54:04.41
Sean
Um, yeah i think that's good and i think like It is a very, it like... like in terms of like valid. like the thing we hear across all clients when it comes to like Like we can only do so much for them unless they. Like we we're were're not built to be like a content. Like a... Pure.

54:23.22
Sean
content agency so we always turn this type of work down but The thing we always hear across all marketing people that we talk to is. Like... the aeo sort of thing and then wanting us to to to do it. and you know.

54:36.81
Sean
um We can only go so far into making sure there's stuff. ranks well, but the content quality is still up to them. um And it's not something they love to hear for what it's worth. In fact, they.

54:49.81
Sean
I hate hearing it because it sounds like they have to rewrite. They have to do research and rewrite things. And once like. The company's at like 2 ,000 blog posts. It's a non-starter. um but they don't know they don't how to like improve upon it for the next blog post either. so

55:05.68
Andrew
Yeah.

55:06.31
Sean
Yeah.

55:06.51
Andrew
I think like... So obviously we started as like Screaming Frog in the cloud.

55:11.24
Sean
Mm hmm.

55:11.42
Andrew
Um... End. and like all of that tooling still exists it's still there in metamonster for people to use but the thing that we kept running up against. Is it just... it It didn't feel like it was valuable enough.

55:25.30
Andrew
to like really get people to adopt.

55:27.86
Sean
Mm hmm.

55:28.24
Andrew
Um, and And so then we we got into like automating keyword research.

55:32.95
Sean
Yeah.

55:33.33
Andrew
And as soon as we automated keyword research, like the reason we built content optimization was because i was like Okay. I've got these keywords now.

55:44.89
Andrew
Help me. understand what to do with them. like I wanted I was like I felt the pain of like why give me the keywords and don't tell me how to like improve my existing pages based on these keywords.

55:58.18
Andrew
Alright.

55:57.97
Sean
totally

55:58.69
Andrew
It just felt dumb. And so that's where we. why we built. content optimization and I'm realizing that a lot of this happened. Probably while we... weren't podcasting and so I don't know how much of it I talked to you about, but. um But, yeah. like We have we have put the focus in metamonster on content um and What? the the you know the metadata into the background Um.

56:25.62
Andrew
Which, yeah, probably means also we're not a meta monster anymore.

56:25.65
Sean
Yeah.

56:28.53
Andrew
but

56:29.77
Sean
Yeah. Now you're just a...

56:30.27
Andrew
people like the mascot. so

56:32.79
Sean
Yeah, and we could still be a monster. It could be. Content monster. Ugh. you Um... Cool. Well... I like it. as ah As a customer. I like it.

56:46.20
Sean
Um, So and well, OK, sorry, two things as a client. One, I like it. And two, I'm glad you don't have to build it internally. so

56:55.80
Andrew
Cool.

56:56.12
Sean
Um, Um...

56:57.68
Andrew
Yes. Yeah, I'd love for you to get in there and start playing around with. the recommendation engine as it stands today and like give me some feedback on what needs to be better

57:04.54
Sean
I feel like I feel like we say this every week where you're supposed to... i'm supposed to like Hit you up for a demo. And then we'd both get busy and then neither of us do like.

57:13.03
Andrew
Yes.

57:14.34
Sean
a demo and then we have a call and you're like Thinking about these new things. I don't like.

57:18.40
Andrew
Yeah.

57:18.70
Sean
All right. these things. Yeah, we'll break out of the the cycle at some point.

57:23.39
Andrew
Okay, cool. Cool. I'm going to... Yeah, force you to do a demo with me.

57:28.11
Sean
Yeah, yeah. yeah yeah all We did just pay our new annual subscription, so...

57:32.11
Andrew
I saw that thank you for that.

57:32.40
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. No problem.

57:33.21
Andrew
It was very nice to see that hit our bank account.

57:35.47
Sean
No problem. No problem. Now we are at. Yeah. We have AR now. um do you want to Do you want to come to Webflow camp? do you want me to do you want me to

57:47.37
Andrew
I would love to. win he

57:48.83
Sean
It's in Boston.

57:50.40
Andrew
Boston, what dates?

57:52.83
Sean
October. No, what the hell am I talking about? September 1st the 3rd

57:58.20
Andrew
cool

57:58.87
Sean
Uh huh.

57:58.95
Andrew
And you all you already have tickets, but you said you can't go.

58:01.15
Sean
i have i have ticket no I have tickets in a hotel. I'm going to go.

58:04.60
Andrew
Sick.

58:04.62
Sean
I can get a room with a double if you want to split her. hotel room with me and hang out. but no pressure.

58:08.65
Andrew
Fuck yeah.

58:09.76
Sean
Okay.

58:09.81
Andrew
Fuck yeah. the question is just can we build a

58:10.67
Sean
Cool.

58:12.39
Andrew
Webflow plugin by then.

58:14.64
Sean
no just make it coming soon it's okay it's fine just talk to people about it you know whatever

58:18.98
Andrew
Cool.

58:19.41
Sean
Um... cool And then... I guess I don't have. I could probably ask for an extra ticket. Yeah, yeah, let me ping my guy Oh, so shout out to Slater.

58:31.22
Sean
at Webflow. Excellent, partner manager. um

58:34.06
Andrew
Hell yeah.

58:34.85
Sean
Great guy. There you go.

58:35.88
Andrew
Brad.

58:36.22
Sean
Um, Cool.

58:36.62
Andrew
Good ridd.

58:37.84
Sean
I gotta run.

58:39.25
Andrew
Cool. Yeah, sorry.

58:39.70
Sean
Thank you.

58:39.88
Andrew
we I hogged the entire the entire episode.

58:40.19
Sean
one time.

58:43.25
Andrew
But I really appreciate all the feedback.

58:45.27
Sean
That's fine. um Here's my updates really quickly. Uh... Still doing miscreants. still trying to do other things. I think the most interesting update since the last time we spoke is.

58:59.08
Sean
I finally started using voice mode and like. claude and claude code and it is the best thing i've that i've ever experienced in my life not i mean

59:07.97
Andrew
Welcome to 2024.

59:10.05
Sean
I know. i know Um,

59:15.28
Andrew
I still, for the record, don't use voice note int. voice mode intentionally sometimes because like the typing things out helps me structure my thoughts. Writing is thinking.

59:25.35
Sean
Yeah, for sure. for Sure. And then I get to a point where I'm really tired. And we can't write anymore. And I just want to talk to someone. Because I'm just writing stream of consciousness anyway.

59:35.98
Andrew
Yes.

59:35.96
Sean
um Yeah. Talking out loud is also thinking. Okay.

59:40.26
Andrew
It is.

59:40.30
Sean
for me. if I don't know.

59:41.15
Andrew
Oh yeah, for me it 100 % is.

59:42.27
Sean
Yeah.

59:42.95
Andrew
i am That's why we have a podcast together.

59:44.43
Sean
Yeah.

59:45.46
Andrew
is

59:45.51
Sean
That's true.

59:46.22
Andrew
just so that I can. Like.

59:48.19
Sean
It is just external processing.

59:49.25
Andrew
Audio process, yeah.

59:50.61
Sean
Yeah, yeah Okay bye. See you later.

59:53.67
Andrew
Bye.

59:54.41
Sean
Bye.