The Marketing Strategy Behind Multi-Million Dollar Brands
We found a cheat code for learning Spanish using Claude and Anki (without studying grammar). Plus, the Cult Brand marketing framework that turns customers into superfans.
In this episode, Andrew reveals why he is moving to Mexico City and going all in on his startup. Sean breaks down how he scaled his agency to 18 employees and the specific Positioning Strategy he uses to charge premium prices.
Links:
Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
Margins: http://margins.so/
Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/
Transcript:
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I've had several situations where I just like make stupid mistakes. I feel very envious of the
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ability to like, spend all your time and energy on like one thing, we kind of made a mistake that I
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think I've seen a lot of people make. Ever felt like you're stuck making the same mistakes or on
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the verge of something big but held back? Today we explore founder struggles, mistakes, burnout, and
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focusing on real growth. We'll discuss creating content for people, not algorithms, and staying
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grounded in what matters. I'm Andrew Askins, founder of meta monster, and I'm Sean's son
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founder of miscreants. Let's dive into the journey. Like I think a lot of founders like, identify that
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by accident and build a product around that. I don't give it. AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already
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knows I'm stupid. You are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that
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actually fits said methodology. Learning a language is a lot of work. Demand is a fluid
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substance. My biggest thing is like social anxiety of picking up and making mistakes. Every small
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move is how we can.
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How's your Spanish going? Pretend I was in Spanish. Um.
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Not something smart. So menos lento is is muy, uh. Muy Modesto.
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Muy, muy Modesto. Um, I, uh, I have been texting a lot in Spanish lately, so, like, my
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reading and writing has been getting a lot better. Faster than my speaking and listening. Um,
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I still, I was just hanging out with a bunch of friends last night. Um, and to be fair, uh, four of
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my friends, um, were were ganging up on one of their boyfriends. And so it was,
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uh, there was a lot of very rapid Spanish, um, and a lot of, like, g. Longo slang flying around, so,
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like, not the easiest to understand, but I was just, like, I was just sitting back laughing, like, I
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don't understand any of this. Although, interestingly enough, understood everything at the
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same time. You know, like the universal language. It was pretty obvious what was happening. Nice.
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Also, I heard you have a new, uh, nickname in Mexico City. Yeah, we don't need to go into that.
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That's fine. I feel like. Yeah. Okay. All right. Fine. Am I? My friends, Rosa and Wyatt. Uh,
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Rosa's from here. Um. Uh, and, uh, she's dating my my good friend Wyatt. Um,
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and one night, I may have had a little too much fun, and, uh, they had to take care of me a bit,
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and I got got dubbed El Polito clause. Um, which means, uh, the little colored chick.
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Um, the the backstory is in Mexico City. Like, I don't know, 10 or 20 years
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ago. Uh, there used to be markets everywhere where you could get these little baby chicks that had
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been dyed like neon colors. And the dye was very bad for the chicks. And so, um, you would, like, buy
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them for your kid, and they would inevitably die within two weeks. Um, and so they were like, just
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very hard to keep alive. And so, Polito declares, is a, uh, is a joke you
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make about someone when they can't take care of themselves, when they when they need, need help. You
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know, I don't think you told me. Did I not give you the context? No, that was way more morbid than I
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thought. I thought it was just like. Like it meant, like ugly duckling or like. I mean, it kind of does.
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It has a morbid start, but it basically just means, like, are you dumb little thing you need, like,
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we got you. It's okay. Um,
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sorry. I'm just. I'm trying to imagine I got it all in neon, baby chick. Oh.
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Um. Oh, that's. Did you find them? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're kind of like peeps, you know? they're
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like poop colored. Yeah, but, like living beings. Yeah. So very, very. Oh, wow. Okay. They
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got. All right. Next topic. Um. One thing I've been doing, though, that's been fun. Um,
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so to try to work on my Spanish, I there's this app that all the, like, language learning nerds use
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called Anki. Um, it's a spaced repetition flashcard app. So basically you practice words and then like
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when you get them right, it's depending on how easy or hard it was. It'll like space out how
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often it shows it to you. So like as you learn words you see them less often. The new words
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you're struggling with. You see them more often. Um, and so I've been wanting to use Anki for a really
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long time. Um, but like, their interface is atrocious. It's a great app. It's all open source,
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but it's like the most painful thing to enter stuff. And they have this, like, incredible
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community of, um, of like people who publish free decks of words. But every deck I found, I
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was just like, I like this isn't what I want to learn. Like, this isn't helpful. Um, and so I've been
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wanting to create my own deck for a long time, and I was like, kind of like, maybe I'll just vibe code
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something. And then I was like, wait a second, before I vibe code anything? I wonder if there's,
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like, a way to hook up Anki to Claude via MCP. And sure enough, someone has built
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an open source, uh, Anki MCP that uses like there's this Anki connector
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plug in thing. Um, that creates like a little local server on your machine. Nice. Um, and so then the
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MCP just connects Claude to the local server. Um, and so, yeah, within like ten minutes, I
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had Claude desktop set up to be able to, like, talk to Anki and just create flashcards
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for me. Although the funny thing is, like, I, I was like, man, it's taking a long time to to create
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this deck like one by one. It was really painful. And I was like, is there a way to like bulk do
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this. And it's like Claude was like, oh, I can I can just create a JSON file for you and you can like
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to click upload it. And I was like, okay, cool. So I didn't need the MCP at all.
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But the other thing that's been really impressive, like I have started using Claude as my translator
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almost as much as Google Translate, if not more, because Google Translate is bad at like context
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and bad at local localization. Like, yeah, it just has Spanish. Um, and I want
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Mexican, Spanish and specifically like Django, Spanish, like Mexico City, Spanish, um, and
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often I'll like punch something into Google Translate and I'll be like, that seems really like
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wordy or awkward the way that you're saying that. And so then I'll jump over to Claude and be like,
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hey, how would you say this? And it you know, it already has the context of like, you're in Mexico
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City and it's like, hey, in Mexico City, you can do just say this. And like, it's been super fucking
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helpful. Um, and sometimes I'll go to, um, if I'm going into, like, going to get a haircut or
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something. Like doing something totally new where I don't know any of the vocab, I'll be like, hey,
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create like an example scenario for me and like, walk me through the vocab I might need. Um, and
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it's so useful. It's really incredible. I'm with you. Um, I get my I tell you, I give my
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parents access to ChatGPT. No. Oh my God. Has that been fun? Yeah, yeah. Um, so the first time
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she tried it, it was like four. Oh. So, uh, like, four had just come out, and she was, like, speaking to it.
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And the fact that it was like speaking in Chinese back and, like, pretty good Chinese, you know, like.
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Yeah. The funny thing is like, because it does this mimicry thing, if you like, speak shitty Chinese to
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it, it kind of like has a shitty like. Like I gotta stop using that word. It has, like a really bad
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accent as well. Um, but yeah, uh, like, I mean, it's a shared. It's my personal shared
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account and like, like, like she's using it every single day. That's that's awesome. That's wild. Yeah.
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In the Chinese like it, you know. Responds completely in Chinese. Um, like. Like. That's crazy.
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You know, like. Yeah. That's amazing. I, uh, I met a friend at a language exchange who told me that he
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uses ChatGPT in voice mode to practice every day, so he'll, like, have a conversation with
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ChatGPT in English so that he can practice his his English. Um, which not that I'm
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saying I really need to do that because, like, speaking is the thing I need the most help with.
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And Claude has context for like, okay, you want to learn Spanish?
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Um, and then it also my like, biggest thing is like social anxiety of fucking up and making mistakes.
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Sure. Um, and so, uh, but I don't give a shit if AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already knows I'm stupid.
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Right? Right. Um. Interesting. Um, I have a, I have an
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app language related app idea for you. Okay, that would be this. This was when I was in Japan. And
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like, you know, there's there's like words, you know, there's things you say like, all the time. And then
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I was thinking like, it'd be really it'd be really cool if I just had, like, a sound board on my phone
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that had all, like, common phrases like, um, so, so not to actually learn Japanese, but just
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to to be able to. Yeah, instead of avoid learning Japanese. Well, I think it'll naturally learn it by,
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you know, you could you could pull it up and instead of having your phone say for you, you
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could say it, uh, but yeah, yeah, 100%. It's entirely so that I could avoid, like, butchering my Japanese
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to people. Um, did you learn any Japanese while you were there? Uh, like.
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Like nothing that I. Nothing. Nothing that I've retained. Um, nor anything,
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um, that I don't know from, like anime. Yeah. Alrighty. So, no, I did not learn any, any Japanese,
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but I also Japan was a I think I told you like I was inside most of the time while I was there
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anyway, so I was trying to pick up a like a tiny bit of Japanese and Korean when I was on the
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Camino, because I had two friends who went who I hung out with a bunch, one who was from Japan, one
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from Korea, and I was trying to like, learn little bits and pieces from them and retained none of it.
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Absolutely none of it. Anime is a good way to learn. It's not I don't think, I don't think, yeah,
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okay. I think I think you learn like, catch phrases like phrases and stuff every once in a while, but
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it's so like, uh, like everyone's always like screaming in anime, for the most part. You don't. I
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don't think you pick it up. I think you probably pick it up from like, like live action dramas,
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probably more often. But no, never. I found a I found a cute little like rom com in that's in
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Spanish that, um, I was watching a little bit of, uh, but I need to watch it, like, in Spanish with
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Spanish subtitles, I think, to really learn, um, because I think if I just watch it in Spanish
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with English subtitles, my brain will just tune out the the Spanish. Um, yeah. I mean, I'll get
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little bits and bobs, but I, I'm not gonna, like, really learn. But, uh, that's
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learning a language is a lot of fucking work. It is. It is. Once you're once you lose your language.
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You know what the language acquisition devices know? What's this? This is like a, like a theory, I
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think, from, like, Noam Chomsky. It's effectively just like your brain when you're young,
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effectively, it's when you're when you're young, your language acquisition device is on. So it
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processes all information coming in and it picks it up. Whereas once you're older you sort of lose
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that ability. Um, which I feel like is very like I guess it's mildly obvious, but I guess he
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did more work to, like, prove it and assign more things to it. Um, yeah. That's
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it. But yeah. Learning Spanish on. Yeah. I tried learning Spanish in high school. Just did not work.
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It could not. um, yeah. I couldn't even colors at this point. I mean, I will say I learned so
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much more when I started again as an adult because I also, like, cared a lot more and like,
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wanted to learn a lot more than I did before. That's fine. And I definitely am learning here. Um,
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but like, like there for a couple of weeks there, it felt like I was I was like, yeah, I'm getting
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better every week. But I was also like going to language exchanges and stuff. And then, you know, my
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parents have been in town for the last week, which has been super fun. It's been really great to show
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them around. But, um, that means I'm not using my Spanish with them a ton. Um, and I
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just I've had several situations where I just, like, make stupid mistakes. And my friend
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Wyatt, who's been here since August, talks about this, he's like, I feel like it's like up, down, up
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like you. Yeah. Like, he'll be like, I'll have a really good week, and then I'll have a week where
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I feel like I can't speak at all. And then I'll have you know, he's like, I really just want to get
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to a point where it's steady. Yeah. Like consistent. Um, but I don't know how long that takes.
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But, I mean, I'm. Have I told you, I'm pretty much committed to being here. Like, long term, I
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I'm starting. I started looking into the process of applying for residency. Um, I'm going to try to
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schedule an appointment with the consulate when I'm back in the US in May. Nice. Um, and, uh, start
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looking around for apartments and things. So I am moving to Mexico City. I'm
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in. I, I have moved. I guess congrats. That's awesome. I'm happy for you. Okay.
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Um. Yeah. Now, now, I don't have a time pressure to visit you. Now I can visit you literally whenever.
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So, are you still trying to come in April? We'll see. I'll see. Okay. I'll see. Well, like. Like you
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just said. No time pressure. No. Yeah. Um, what else is going on with you? I hear you have some big
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news. Um, yeah, I, I don't think I've told you this yet. Um, is it gonna piss me off? I
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already know what it is. I have a feeling of what it is, and it's gonna. It's gonna annoy the shit
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out of me, so. Okay. What do you think it is? Tell me. Uh, I think you have a full time
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job offer, and you're gonna. It's still. I am wrapping up. I'm. My contract with Scout
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ends at the end of February. I, I am going full time on. I'm going to take four months and go full
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time on meta monster and, like, try to give it another, like, really solid push and see. See if we
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can, if we can make it happen. I'm like way less pissed off now. That's amazing. I'm so happy
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for you. Um, yeah. Yeah, I, I had been,
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um, uh, kind of thinking like, um,
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so Brian, the CEO of Scout, and I talked at the beginning of the year about like how much longer
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I was going to work there. And I was like, well, like, I, you know, it's still a good situation for
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me. If you're still happy with the work, I think, you know, it makes sense to just sort of keep
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going. Yeah. Meta monster's still a ways away from being able to support me. Um, but, uh, a couple of
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things have, have changed. Um, um, uh, and in part because
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of some shifting dynamics at Scout and stuff. Brian reached out to me a couple weeks ago and
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was like, hey, um, you know, I know we've talked about you, you know, transitioning before. I feel
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like we're in a pretty good place to do that. Now. What do you think like is that. And I was like,
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yeah, honestly, I, you know, I wasn't sure if maybe we'd, you know, it would be a month or two from now.
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But like, if you're, if you're kind of thinking about it now, I think let's go ahead and just yeah,
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just transition away because I really have been feeling like I need to put some more time into my
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own own projects. So, um, and, uh, a mutual friend of ours, um, I'll tell you who, after the
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pod. But a mutual friend of ours reached out and asked if I was interested in some contract work.
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I'll probably talk to them, but I think I'm going to try to turn it down and just focus on, um. Uh,
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and I haven't heard from them, so they might have gotten busy. It might not even make sense for them,
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but, um, but, uh, yeah, I think I really want to take the next four months, um,
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and just focus on, like, learn Spanish, build meta monster, um, and really try to see what
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I can. If I can get this thing to product market fit, I'm going to try to get slack later into the
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marketplace, or at least like get that process rolling by the end of February, um, as well, so that
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I can like put, you know, sort of close the not close the door on psych letter, but just like, put
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it aside for a little bit, like put it on the back burner a little bit and like, focus on metal
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monster. Um, and, uh, and then also, you know, I'll be working with, with Jade a bit on hello SEO.
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Um, I think I'm going to try to run a couple of SEO projects, um, to learn. Um,
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yeah, we are, uh, we've we're continuing to make progress with the revamp of the product.
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I think it's going to be a lot better. Um, I think it's going to be a lot easier to use. I still
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don't know if there is really a market for it. Um, but I think it's going to be our best
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version yet. And so we've got our best shot of, like, making it, making it work. Um,
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um, and so. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm going to give this another, another big
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swing and then we'll see kind of where we land. I don't totally know. Like Austin and I have sort of
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said July, you know, if if we haven't found product market fit by July, it's time to
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reconsider. Um. And I don't know what that means. Um, I think there's a chance that
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means taking a break from SaaS and trying to build either a service business again or
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build a, um, you know, potentially, like, try to buy a brick and mortar,
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like, or, you know, an IRL business of some kind, um, a trad business.
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Um. That's terrible. Don't say that. Wow.
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Um, yeah. I didn't like that coming out of my mouth either. Um, but, yeah,
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gonna kind of give a monster another swing. Um, yeah, I guess if it if it really crashes and burns,
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uh, I might I might, uh, pitch you on on a be like, hey, hey, Sean, do you need an entrepreneur
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in residence or some shit? Yeah, 100%. You should come here and work here as an evil. Um, well, uh,
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I think that's I think that's super exciting, I think. Is this the first time you're, like, actually
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full time? Full time on meta monster? I think there were a few months, uh, last year.
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Maybe because I feel like there was. Like a break in miscreants work. The work I was doing with you
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all for a little bit. Before maybe not. Did I feel like it was very, like, very short. Very brief.
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Like a month? Or something? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it lasted more than two episodes. Wow. Okay. I mean,
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to be fair. Our episodes come out, like, once every three months, so. Oh. So true. Two episodes can be a
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long time. Yeah, yeah. That's fair. Um. Well, good. I'm excited. I think that's, um. I think it'll
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be like. I think it'll bring a lot more clarity to it. I don't know, I feel very, uh,
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like. Not envious of the ability to, like, spend all
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your time and energy on like one thing you know, and just do that thing. So, um, yeah. Looking
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forward to what month three looks like. And I think on the PMS side, I think it's, you know,
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realistically, I think even if you don't find PMF by month four, but you've made a lot of progress
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towards that. Like I think it's a feeling that you just feel it out, you know? Yeah. Um, um, the
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when we look at it like August was kind of the, the end of August, early September was
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the last time we, we brought on a new customer and I like they're, they're kind of three things that
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happened around that time. One, we went from the old simple UI to like the new complex UI. Um, and I
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still don't believe that, like, you know, doing page titles and meta descriptions was a system was
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like going to be a way to grow. But the we kind of made a mistake that I
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think I've seen a lot of people make, which is like we kind of got too obsessed with the AI
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piece and like we put prompts and the AI front and center instead of like focusing on the
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problems and like the workflows we were trying to solve. Um, and so the software became very
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opinionated. Um, and, and like, I thought it was easy to use because I was like, prompts are easy to
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write, but it wasn't easy to use. You like, really needed to understand kind of how the tool worked
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and like what options you had. And and then yeah, I think prompts are still like kind of confusing
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to a lot of people. And like working with agents is a little bit easier, but agents aren't. You know,
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and it is an agent under the hood. Um, but there are some things, again that like
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you need structure and, and sort of scalability for that, like just a raw agent that you spin up
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isn't that great at, um. Uh, and so, yeah, I think so. That's that's one thing.
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Another is like my focus on marketing slowed way down because my focus on Scout
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increased and like, just like, moved to Mexico and like, a bunch of things happened, you know,
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it's kind of holidays into the year. So like, a bunch of things happened and I stopped putting as
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much consistent energy into marketing. Um, uh, and,
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um, and then, you know, we also at that time,
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um, changed our pricing model up a little bit and changed to like a credit based system, which
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I still don't know is the wrong thing. Um, but, uh, we switched over to, like, a credit based system,
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and we, like, switched to, like, a free trial. Um, uh, Versus before. We were trying to push people to,
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like, schedule a demo. For a while. Um, and, uh.
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At the beginning of this month, I removed the free trial from the marketing site and pushed everyone
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to schedule a demo again. I have gotten zero demos, so I don't think that is. I don't think that was
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the the change. Uh, but I think some combination of me not marketing it enough and the
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product's becoming kind of an opinionated and powerful, but hard to use, um,
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might have been moves in the wrong direction. And so, you know, the hope is
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March 1st, we roll out new, simpler UI. Um, it might we might roll it out sooner. It's pretty close to
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ready. Um, we roll out new, simpler UI with more opinionated workflows. Um,
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I think, like, as we roll out schema and internal links. We're going to do those much better than we
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ever have done them before. We now have keyword research, um, as a component of the tool.
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And, uh, I actually really like it. Um, someone should have told us to do that a while ago. It
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would have been. It's a good thing they've done a lot of time. Never got published. Um,
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it's probably on YouTube, right? I just was like, I don't I didn't ever publish the audio version.
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Yeah. Um. Who knows? Uh, by the way, I guess since I never published that, if someone's only listening
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to this via audio. Uh, I live in Mexico City now. Wow. That
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wasn't clear. Um, but. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm. I'm
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feeling excited to get to work on Metal Monster again and to give it another push, and then we'll
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we'll see what the next few months old. Nice. Yeah. Cool. Um, so what's going on in
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Greenland? What's going on in miscreants land? Um, how many people are just crushing
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it? Per usual. How many crushing me? Uh, do
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you want to take a guess how many people work here at the moment? Full time. Full time? Okay. Only
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full time. Last time we talked, I thought it was like 20, but that included part time. Yes. Um, so are
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you up to 20 full time? I'm up to 18 full time, but we have two more job like openings at the moment.
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If anyone's a senior collateral designer or a senior, whether it's a senior collateral designer,
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like someone who's like, just loves doing decks and data sheets and things like that, like
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marketing collateral. Okay, sort of person I need like a deck person, um, or a senior Webflow
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developer fired up a deck with Claud recently, and it was Really fucking good. It is. It is pretty
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good. It is. It is wild. It it is pretty good. If my whispering is good audio, probably not. But it's
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okay. I can hear it. Um, I think I think, uh, it is pretty good. Okay, so senior collateral designer.
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That's kind of cool. Yeah. Um, so we need one of those, and then also like, uh, like another
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senior Webflow developer. Um, so, yeah, if anyone out there
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wants to work here, what are you up to? Including part time? Uh, it's probably like
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20 something. Depends. 20, 22, 25 somewhere. It just depends on how you count some folks. But,
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um. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many people here. We had an all hands, uh, yesterday.
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Uh oh. So it's our five year anniversary as of Monday, so. Yeah. Dude, he's in here and President's
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Day on the 16th, but congrats. And I'm sure there's other, other things. That's a big fucking deal. Uh,
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yeah. It's longer than any any other commitment I've ever made in my life. Pretty much. It's it's
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like, um. Yeah. Yeah, we have five years. I kind of, um.
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We had an all hands yesterday. I gave a give a talk to the team about sort of needing to
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start shifting, like our strategy of, like, what type of agency we are. I think you and I have
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talked about it a little bit, but I think this is the thing that keeps coming up. And I've spoken to
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other, you know, clients and they resonate with it with like that. We need to be accountable to the
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outcomes instead of output of the work. That's that's so hard though, because so much of the
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outcomes are outside of your control. So you got to figure out how to like, control the outcomes
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for sure. I think there's like, you know, I don't think I don't think we're accountable to like,
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revenue, but it's it's a matter of like, uh, I think the shift in thinking means that, like our
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retainers. Right. Our retainers are currently very output driven. It's you by this many points. So
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would you get as much work as you want to? But that means you lead. You know, you lead the
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strategy of what is happening, which is cool until the retainer keeps growing. And then someone, a new
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marketer, comes in and goes, why aren't we just doing this in-house? Or why don't we get some
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freelancers overseas to start doing it? So yeah. Um. Um, whereas versus if you
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all own strategy, then they're like, oh shit, if we lose that, how are we going to. Right, right. And I
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think we have we're, you know, we're in a unique position to do that because like, we just have
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worked with so many cybersecurity companies, we literally see what works and what doesn't. Yeah.
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And then on the other side, it's it means our retainers gets split into three parts. It's
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strategy execution and like measurement and optimization. Right. So it's like I would love to
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see you write like a comprehensive like playbook for like for cybersecurity brands. But
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I'd be so curious to see Just next thing, all of this down into your out of your head onto paper.
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I'd be so curious. Uh. There is. It is. Work in progress. Um.
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Um. That feels like something you could 100% work with AI to do. Because it doesn't mean to be
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eloquent. It needs to be like it needs to be. Contain your ideas and, like, get them on
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paper. Yeah, 100%. Um, so. So the all hands was sort of like a I've been trying to wrack my brain
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about, like, what is like something to sort of rally us behind for 2026. Right. Like, what is our
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actual goal? And I think like effectiveness is sort of the theme. Um, effectiveness. And like not
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only the outcomes instead of output of the work, but also like, um, different than, like efficient
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working. Um, much more like, uh, you know, like we have these weekly feedback loops with clients.
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Um, we have these weekly feedback loops with clients, which means that, uh, they they they.
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They get to see it week to week. Um, which means every meeting that we like with a new brand
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project, every meeting is almost like a risk because they haven't seen things leading up to it.
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Whereas, like if we get there by in throughout the week, you know, they they see all that. So that's
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that's a level of effectiveness. Another side. Um, so anyway I'm trying to have everyone kind of
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essentially do OKRs with me where they figure out like, what is the thing that they can do to become
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more effective. And I'm sort of helping them shape that. The thing that I'm working on is actually
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essentially like an internal book that we might, you know, make public. It sort of
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centers around this idea of a, uh, have we talked about this, the cult brand framework or the cult
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brand framework? You've talked. You've hinted at it a couple times. I don't know that we've gotten
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super in-depth on it. Gotcha. Um, it comes from two places. One is that every client that works with
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us effectively wants to be a cult brand. When I say cold brand, I mean, like, um.
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Like these customers, like, buy into you. You know, a linear, a notion. Like, they they switch their
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workflows to you is kind of. Exactly. Green is is perfect. A great example of it. Right. And it's
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usually because you are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that
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actually fits said methodology. Yeah. But the methodology you have typically is built off of
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the fact that, yeah, yeah, you, you have like you like so so it kind of goes into like
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identifying what the, uh, like tolerable pain is, is sort of how how I kind of explain it. It's
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like, um, you know, there's, there's different types of pain, right? There's acute pain, like, your neck
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is bleeding. You have to go fix this thing. That's a that's a buying trigger for a lot of companies.
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But it's you know, in this case it's much better for demand gen or for sales to like, you know, go
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for that thing because it's very timely. Right. We don't talk about log log for J the way we used to
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when it first dropped. So it's very temporary. Whereas the chronic there's chronic pain, right?
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Which is like the thing that bothers people constantly. Um, so like it's identifying like, what
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is the chronic pain that exists? Um, and then figuring out like, what is the sort of like trade
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off or copium people smoking their jobs to, uh, effectively like, deal with this
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pain. Um, so, so a good signal is like when someone says it's just the way things have always been,
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which is a common thing in a lot of B2B. Um, what you're saying this is fascinating because I feel
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like this kind of and I think this is a really good thing runs contrary to popular advice, at
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least, like popular bootstrap or advice. Um, because the advice is always like, focus on the
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painkillers. Anything that's not a painkiller like is impossible to build a business around. And like
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if if people say it, you know, it is how it is, then there's not enough motivation to, to change. Um, and
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what you're saying is like, actually, if you, um, if you like, do a good enough job of understanding
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the chronic pain and and presenting a solution to the chronic pain that is easy enough to
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adopt, then then you can actually like win dig that way. Yeah, 100%. Um, so
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yeah, chronic pain I guess is different. Different from like vitamins where like, vitamins aren't
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solving a pain at all. It's they're just like a nice to have. Yeah. And versus like, you know, it's
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almost like the difference between like baby aspirin and opium, not opium,
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opiates, but opioids, whatever. Like morphine. There we go. That's the word I'm looking for.
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Yeah. For sure. And I think, um, you know, I think I think like when you have, like, I think a lot of
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founders, like, identify that by accident and build a product around that, and then they sort of scale
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it and build it. And the messaging gets murky because they kind of like nobody goes and
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articulates that specific, like what it was like the actual like annoyance. You had the itch that
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you scratched. Um, and part of what you're saying is, like, you know, you morphine is
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easy to sell because when someone needs it, they need it really badly. But it's, like, hard to market
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because, like 90% of the time, 99% of the time, people don't need it. Is that part of what you're
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saying to versus like, chronic pain is always there versus like the acute pain is like it's a
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flash in a moment. And like, you might get a spike in sales from an A from acute pain. But like
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you're you're going to like you need something longer lasting. Yeah. Yeah I think that's a yeah.
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That's a that's a great way to put it. Thanks I appreciate it. Um, I think I think it's um, I think
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like, uh, so, so the whole, the whole idea of systems from another like theory I have about, like, um, I
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like, I've always kind of felt very weird about this idea of, like, demand generation as, like what
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it currently is and how other how I've seen other agencies could have do it. Right. And yeah. Um, and I
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think it's like, what I realize is that, like, um, demand is a fluid substance.
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Um, it is it is like a river. And positioning is putting yourself downstream of said river
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marketing, how traditional B2B marketing is positioning somewhere that is green feel that
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nobody is, and then spending a lot of money to plumb said water to you. Yeah, build a canal
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basically. Right. But it's a lot cheaper to just it's a lot cheaper and way more effective to just
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sit there and then also like break the dam or spread open like spread said things. So like this
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idea that like demand like there's probably a lot of latent demand that exists and is untouched, um,
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for your product or if we can identify it. Right. Um, if we can figure out what the latent demand is,
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which is where that tolerable pain comes from, um, you know, so, like, going off of your, your thing is
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like, um, yeah, instead of sort of, like, waiting for people to, uh, feel the pain,
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like, feel their headache acutely. And then they have to go take something much stronger. Like, you
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can sell the thing of, like, here's, here's something to take every single day that makes you
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not, you know. That deals with the chronic sort of pain. So yeah, I feel like metaphors are getting a
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little mixed, but I like where this is going a lot. And, you know, I'm always a big fan of like
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emphasizing pain points and talking about them and clarifying them. And yeah, I think not too many
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companies classic advice, but too many companies get too caught up on solutions. And yeah, trying to
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invent new pains. Yeah. Um, yeah. Cool. I'm really excited to see where you go with this. Um, one
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question before we I got a bounce in just a second, but I'm. I'm really curious. Um, who do you
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think are, like, the best examples of cult brands in the cybersecurity space today? Because, like, I
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think gray noise has lost, has, like, faded a little bit. Like, I don't think they're as as strong as
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they were. So like, who are the. Who are the leaders at the moment? You know, my team asked me the same
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thing. And I don't have an answer for this. Like, okay. Yeah, I, I don't know if I can, uh, you know, I
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think, uh, I think sublime is a good example of one. Um, they immediately came to mind. Yeah. Does rumble
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count or not? Rumble run zero, are they or I think I just don't know enough about them. Um,
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because we haven't really. Yeah. We haven't worked with them. Um, yeah. I mean, honestly, I, I don't know,
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um, uh, I do think that if you know, is in a clear answer, then that means there's space for
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someone to. Yeah, yeah, they've been there. They're cult. I mean, yeah, I
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think so. I think, um, I think the, the, the, the, the flip side of this is like when you don't
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articulate and figure it out, you do run the risk of becoming like like you've built something
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really cool. It obviously scratches an itch for a lot of people. It hit on this lady demand thing,
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but like by not realizing that you've done this and expecting it to just kind of keep on
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ballooning. Um, that like, that's why, you know, like, like thinking about the longevity of
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blockchain or Bitcoin or Stripe or Apple. It's sort of like these companies realize what it what
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these principles are and able to are able to kind of keep executing towards that. So anyway,
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um, uh, cool. Yeah. Long term project at the moment. So love
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it. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, it was good to be back on the mic with you after, uh, an extended hiatus.
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And, um, we'll try to try to do it more regularly and probably fail, but we'll get back to
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it eventually. We'll see. All right. Cool. I'll see you. Can't wait to see where this goes. Peace. All
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right.
In this episode, Andrew reveals why he is moving to Mexico City and going all in on his startup. Sean breaks down how he scaled his agency to 18 employees and the specific Positioning Strategy he uses to charge premium prices.
Links:
Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
Margins: http://margins.so/
Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/
Transcript:
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I've had several situations where I just like make stupid mistakes. I feel very envious of the
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ability to like, spend all your time and energy on like one thing, we kind of made a mistake that I
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think I've seen a lot of people make. Ever felt like you're stuck making the same mistakes or on
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the verge of something big but held back? Today we explore founder struggles, mistakes, burnout, and
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focusing on real growth. We'll discuss creating content for people, not algorithms, and staying
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grounded in what matters. I'm Andrew Askins, founder of meta monster, and I'm Sean's son
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founder of miscreants. Let's dive into the journey. Like I think a lot of founders like, identify that
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by accident and build a product around that. I don't give it. AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already
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knows I'm stupid. You are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that
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actually fits said methodology. Learning a language is a lot of work. Demand is a fluid
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substance. My biggest thing is like social anxiety of picking up and making mistakes. Every small
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move is how we can.
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How's your Spanish going? Pretend I was in Spanish. Um.
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Not something smart. So menos lento is is muy, uh. Muy Modesto.
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Muy, muy Modesto. Um, I, uh, I have been texting a lot in Spanish lately, so, like, my
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reading and writing has been getting a lot better. Faster than my speaking and listening. Um,
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I still, I was just hanging out with a bunch of friends last night. Um, and to be fair, uh, four of
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my friends, um, were were ganging up on one of their boyfriends. And so it was,
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uh, there was a lot of very rapid Spanish, um, and a lot of, like, g. Longo slang flying around, so,
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like, not the easiest to understand, but I was just, like, I was just sitting back laughing, like, I
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don't understand any of this. Although, interestingly enough, understood everything at the
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same time. You know, like the universal language. It was pretty obvious what was happening. Nice.
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Also, I heard you have a new, uh, nickname in Mexico City. Yeah, we don't need to go into that.
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That's fine. I feel like. Yeah. Okay. All right. Fine. Am I? My friends, Rosa and Wyatt. Uh,
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Rosa's from here. Um. Uh, and, uh, she's dating my my good friend Wyatt. Um,
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and one night, I may have had a little too much fun, and, uh, they had to take care of me a bit,
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and I got got dubbed El Polito clause. Um, which means, uh, the little colored chick.
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Um, the the backstory is in Mexico City. Like, I don't know, 10 or 20 years
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ago. Uh, there used to be markets everywhere where you could get these little baby chicks that had
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been dyed like neon colors. And the dye was very bad for the chicks. And so, um, you would, like, buy
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them for your kid, and they would inevitably die within two weeks. Um, and so they were like, just
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very hard to keep alive. And so, Polito declares, is a, uh, is a joke you
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make about someone when they can't take care of themselves, when they when they need, need help. You
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know, I don't think you told me. Did I not give you the context? No, that was way more morbid than I
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thought. I thought it was just like. Like it meant, like ugly duckling or like. I mean, it kind of does.
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It has a morbid start, but it basically just means, like, are you dumb little thing you need, like,
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we got you. It's okay. Um,
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sorry. I'm just. I'm trying to imagine I got it all in neon, baby chick. Oh.
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Um. Oh, that's. Did you find them? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're kind of like peeps, you know? they're
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like poop colored. Yeah, but, like living beings. Yeah. So very, very. Oh, wow. Okay. They
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got. All right. Next topic. Um. One thing I've been doing, though, that's been fun. Um,
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so to try to work on my Spanish, I there's this app that all the, like, language learning nerds use
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called Anki. Um, it's a spaced repetition flashcard app. So basically you practice words and then like
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when you get them right, it's depending on how easy or hard it was. It'll like space out how
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often it shows it to you. So like as you learn words you see them less often. The new words
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you're struggling with. You see them more often. Um, and so I've been wanting to use Anki for a really
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long time. Um, but like, their interface is atrocious. It's a great app. It's all open source,
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but it's like the most painful thing to enter stuff. And they have this, like, incredible
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community of, um, of like people who publish free decks of words. But every deck I found, I
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was just like, I like this isn't what I want to learn. Like, this isn't helpful. Um, and so I've been
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wanting to create my own deck for a long time, and I was like, kind of like, maybe I'll just vibe code
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something. And then I was like, wait a second, before I vibe code anything? I wonder if there's,
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like, a way to hook up Anki to Claude via MCP. And sure enough, someone has built
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an open source, uh, Anki MCP that uses like there's this Anki connector
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plug in thing. Um, that creates like a little local server on your machine. Nice. Um, and so then the
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MCP just connects Claude to the local server. Um, and so, yeah, within like ten minutes, I
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had Claude desktop set up to be able to, like, talk to Anki and just create flashcards
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for me. Although the funny thing is, like, I, I was like, man, it's taking a long time to to create
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this deck like one by one. It was really painful. And I was like, is there a way to like bulk do
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this. And it's like Claude was like, oh, I can I can just create a JSON file for you and you can like
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to click upload it. And I was like, okay, cool. So I didn't need the MCP at all.
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But the other thing that's been really impressive, like I have started using Claude as my translator
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almost as much as Google Translate, if not more, because Google Translate is bad at like context
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and bad at local localization. Like, yeah, it just has Spanish. Um, and I want
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Mexican, Spanish and specifically like Django, Spanish, like Mexico City, Spanish, um, and
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often I'll like punch something into Google Translate and I'll be like, that seems really like
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wordy or awkward the way that you're saying that. And so then I'll jump over to Claude and be like,
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hey, how would you say this? And it you know, it already has the context of like, you're in Mexico
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City and it's like, hey, in Mexico City, you can do just say this. And like, it's been super fucking
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helpful. Um, and sometimes I'll go to, um, if I'm going into, like, going to get a haircut or
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something. Like doing something totally new where I don't know any of the vocab, I'll be like, hey,
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create like an example scenario for me and like, walk me through the vocab I might need. Um, and
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it's so useful. It's really incredible. I'm with you. Um, I get my I tell you, I give my
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parents access to ChatGPT. No. Oh my God. Has that been fun? Yeah, yeah. Um, so the first time
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she tried it, it was like four. Oh. So, uh, like, four had just come out, and she was, like, speaking to it.
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And the fact that it was like speaking in Chinese back and, like, pretty good Chinese, you know, like.
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Yeah. The funny thing is like, because it does this mimicry thing, if you like, speak shitty Chinese to
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it, it kind of like has a shitty like. Like I gotta stop using that word. It has, like a really bad
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accent as well. Um, but yeah, uh, like, I mean, it's a shared. It's my personal shared
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account and like, like, like she's using it every single day. That's that's awesome. That's wild. Yeah.
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In the Chinese like it, you know. Responds completely in Chinese. Um, like. Like. That's crazy.
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You know, like. Yeah. That's amazing. I, uh, I met a friend at a language exchange who told me that he
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uses ChatGPT in voice mode to practice every day, so he'll, like, have a conversation with
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ChatGPT in English so that he can practice his his English. Um, which not that I'm
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saying I really need to do that because, like, speaking is the thing I need the most help with.
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And Claude has context for like, okay, you want to learn Spanish?
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Um, and then it also my like, biggest thing is like social anxiety of fucking up and making mistakes.
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Sure. Um, and so, uh, but I don't give a shit if AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already knows I'm stupid.
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Right? Right. Um. Interesting. Um, I have a, I have an
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app language related app idea for you. Okay, that would be this. This was when I was in Japan. And
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like, you know, there's there's like words, you know, there's things you say like, all the time. And then
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I was thinking like, it'd be really it'd be really cool if I just had, like, a sound board on my phone
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that had all, like, common phrases like, um, so, so not to actually learn Japanese, but just
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to to be able to. Yeah, instead of avoid learning Japanese. Well, I think it'll naturally learn it by,
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you know, you could you could pull it up and instead of having your phone say for you, you
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could say it, uh, but yeah, yeah, 100%. It's entirely so that I could avoid, like, butchering my Japanese
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to people. Um, did you learn any Japanese while you were there? Uh, like.
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Like nothing that I. Nothing. Nothing that I've retained. Um, nor anything,
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um, that I don't know from, like anime. Yeah. Alrighty. So, no, I did not learn any, any Japanese,
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but I also Japan was a I think I told you like I was inside most of the time while I was there
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anyway, so I was trying to pick up a like a tiny bit of Japanese and Korean when I was on the
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Camino, because I had two friends who went who I hung out with a bunch, one who was from Japan, one
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from Korea, and I was trying to like, learn little bits and pieces from them and retained none of it.
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Absolutely none of it. Anime is a good way to learn. It's not I don't think, I don't think, yeah,
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okay. I think I think you learn like, catch phrases like phrases and stuff every once in a while, but
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it's so like, uh, like everyone's always like screaming in anime, for the most part. You don't. I
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don't think you pick it up. I think you probably pick it up from like, like live action dramas,
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probably more often. But no, never. I found a I found a cute little like rom com in that's in
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Spanish that, um, I was watching a little bit of, uh, but I need to watch it, like, in Spanish with
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Spanish subtitles, I think, to really learn, um, because I think if I just watch it in Spanish
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with English subtitles, my brain will just tune out the the Spanish. Um, yeah. I mean, I'll get
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little bits and bobs, but I, I'm not gonna, like, really learn. But, uh, that's
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learning a language is a lot of fucking work. It is. It is. Once you're once you lose your language.
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You know what the language acquisition devices know? What's this? This is like a, like a theory, I
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think, from, like, Noam Chomsky. It's effectively just like your brain when you're young,
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effectively, it's when you're when you're young, your language acquisition device is on. So it
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processes all information coming in and it picks it up. Whereas once you're older you sort of lose
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that ability. Um, which I feel like is very like I guess it's mildly obvious, but I guess he
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did more work to, like, prove it and assign more things to it. Um, yeah. That's
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it. But yeah. Learning Spanish on. Yeah. I tried learning Spanish in high school. Just did not work.
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It could not. um, yeah. I couldn't even colors at this point. I mean, I will say I learned so
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much more when I started again as an adult because I also, like, cared a lot more and like,
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wanted to learn a lot more than I did before. That's fine. And I definitely am learning here. Um,
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but like, like there for a couple of weeks there, it felt like I was I was like, yeah, I'm getting
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better every week. But I was also like going to language exchanges and stuff. And then, you know, my
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parents have been in town for the last week, which has been super fun. It's been really great to show
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them around. But, um, that means I'm not using my Spanish with them a ton. Um, and I
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just I've had several situations where I just, like, make stupid mistakes. And my friend
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Wyatt, who's been here since August, talks about this, he's like, I feel like it's like up, down, up
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like you. Yeah. Like, he'll be like, I'll have a really good week, and then I'll have a week where
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I feel like I can't speak at all. And then I'll have you know, he's like, I really just want to get
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to a point where it's steady. Yeah. Like consistent. Um, but I don't know how long that takes.
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But, I mean, I'm. Have I told you, I'm pretty much committed to being here. Like, long term, I
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I'm starting. I started looking into the process of applying for residency. Um, I'm going to try to
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schedule an appointment with the consulate when I'm back in the US in May. Nice. Um, and, uh, start
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looking around for apartments and things. So I am moving to Mexico City. I'm
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in. I, I have moved. I guess congrats. That's awesome. I'm happy for you. Okay.
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Um. Yeah. Now, now, I don't have a time pressure to visit you. Now I can visit you literally whenever.
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So, are you still trying to come in April? We'll see. I'll see. Okay. I'll see. Well, like. Like you
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just said. No time pressure. No. Yeah. Um, what else is going on with you? I hear you have some big
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news. Um, yeah, I, I don't think I've told you this yet. Um, is it gonna piss me off? I
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already know what it is. I have a feeling of what it is, and it's gonna. It's gonna annoy the shit
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out of me, so. Okay. What do you think it is? Tell me. Uh, I think you have a full time
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job offer, and you're gonna. It's still. I am wrapping up. I'm. My contract with Scout
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ends at the end of February. I, I am going full time on. I'm going to take four months and go full
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time on meta monster and, like, try to give it another, like, really solid push and see. See if we
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can, if we can make it happen. I'm like way less pissed off now. That's amazing. I'm so happy
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for you. Um, yeah. Yeah, I, I had been,
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um, uh, kind of thinking like, um,
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so Brian, the CEO of Scout, and I talked at the beginning of the year about like how much longer
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I was going to work there. And I was like, well, like, I, you know, it's still a good situation for
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me. If you're still happy with the work, I think, you know, it makes sense to just sort of keep
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going. Yeah. Meta monster's still a ways away from being able to support me. Um, but, uh, a couple of
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things have, have changed. Um, um, uh, and in part because
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of some shifting dynamics at Scout and stuff. Brian reached out to me a couple weeks ago and
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was like, hey, um, you know, I know we've talked about you, you know, transitioning before. I feel
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like we're in a pretty good place to do that. Now. What do you think like is that. And I was like,
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yeah, honestly, I, you know, I wasn't sure if maybe we'd, you know, it would be a month or two from now.
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But like, if you're, if you're kind of thinking about it now, I think let's go ahead and just yeah,
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just transition away because I really have been feeling like I need to put some more time into my
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own own projects. So, um, and, uh, a mutual friend of ours, um, I'll tell you who, after the
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pod. But a mutual friend of ours reached out and asked if I was interested in some contract work.
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I'll probably talk to them, but I think I'm going to try to turn it down and just focus on, um. Uh,
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and I haven't heard from them, so they might have gotten busy. It might not even make sense for them,
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but, um, but, uh, yeah, I think I really want to take the next four months, um,
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and just focus on, like, learn Spanish, build meta monster, um, and really try to see what
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I can. If I can get this thing to product market fit, I'm going to try to get slack later into the
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marketplace, or at least like get that process rolling by the end of February, um, as well, so that
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I can like put, you know, sort of close the not close the door on psych letter, but just like, put
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it aside for a little bit, like put it on the back burner a little bit and like, focus on metal
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monster. Um, and, uh, and then also, you know, I'll be working with, with Jade a bit on hello SEO.
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Um, I think I'm going to try to run a couple of SEO projects, um, to learn. Um,
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yeah, we are, uh, we've we're continuing to make progress with the revamp of the product.
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I think it's going to be a lot better. Um, I think it's going to be a lot easier to use. I still
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don't know if there is really a market for it. Um, but I think it's going to be our best
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version yet. And so we've got our best shot of, like, making it, making it work. Um,
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um, and so. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm going to give this another, another big
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swing and then we'll see kind of where we land. I don't totally know. Like Austin and I have sort of
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said July, you know, if if we haven't found product market fit by July, it's time to
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reconsider. Um. And I don't know what that means. Um, I think there's a chance that
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means taking a break from SaaS and trying to build either a service business again or
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build a, um, you know, potentially, like, try to buy a brick and mortar,
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like, or, you know, an IRL business of some kind, um, a trad business.
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Um. That's terrible. Don't say that. Wow.
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Um, yeah. I didn't like that coming out of my mouth either. Um, but, yeah,
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gonna kind of give a monster another swing. Um, yeah, I guess if it if it really crashes and burns,
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uh, I might I might, uh, pitch you on on a be like, hey, hey, Sean, do you need an entrepreneur
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in residence or some shit? Yeah, 100%. You should come here and work here as an evil. Um, well, uh,
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I think that's I think that's super exciting, I think. Is this the first time you're, like, actually
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full time? Full time on meta monster? I think there were a few months, uh, last year.
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Maybe because I feel like there was. Like a break in miscreants work. The work I was doing with you
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all for a little bit. Before maybe not. Did I feel like it was very, like, very short. Very brief.
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Like a month? Or something? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it lasted more than two episodes. Wow. Okay. I mean,
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to be fair. Our episodes come out, like, once every three months, so. Oh. So true. Two episodes can be a
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long time. Yeah, yeah. That's fair. Um. Well, good. I'm excited. I think that's, um. I think it'll
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be like. I think it'll bring a lot more clarity to it. I don't know, I feel very, uh,
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like. Not envious of the ability to, like, spend all
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your time and energy on like one thing you know, and just do that thing. So, um, yeah. Looking
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forward to what month three looks like. And I think on the PMS side, I think it's, you know,
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realistically, I think even if you don't find PMF by month four, but you've made a lot of progress
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towards that. Like I think it's a feeling that you just feel it out, you know? Yeah. Um, um, the
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when we look at it like August was kind of the, the end of August, early September was
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the last time we, we brought on a new customer and I like they're, they're kind of three things that
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happened around that time. One, we went from the old simple UI to like the new complex UI. Um, and I
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still don't believe that, like, you know, doing page titles and meta descriptions was a system was
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like going to be a way to grow. But the we kind of made a mistake that I
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think I've seen a lot of people make, which is like we kind of got too obsessed with the AI
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piece and like we put prompts and the AI front and center instead of like focusing on the
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problems and like the workflows we were trying to solve. Um, and so the software became very
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opinionated. Um, and, and like, I thought it was easy to use because I was like, prompts are easy to
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write, but it wasn't easy to use. You like, really needed to understand kind of how the tool worked
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and like what options you had. And and then yeah, I think prompts are still like kind of confusing
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to a lot of people. And like working with agents is a little bit easier, but agents aren't. You know,
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and it is an agent under the hood. Um, but there are some things, again that like
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you need structure and, and sort of scalability for that, like just a raw agent that you spin up
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isn't that great at, um. Uh, and so, yeah, I think so. That's that's one thing.
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Another is like my focus on marketing slowed way down because my focus on Scout
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increased and like, just like, moved to Mexico and like, a bunch of things happened, you know,
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it's kind of holidays into the year. So like, a bunch of things happened and I stopped putting as
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much consistent energy into marketing. Um, uh, and,
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um, and then, you know, we also at that time,
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um, changed our pricing model up a little bit and changed to like a credit based system, which
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I still don't know is the wrong thing. Um, but, uh, we switched over to, like, a credit based system,
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and we, like, switched to, like, a free trial. Um, uh, Versus before. We were trying to push people to,
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like, schedule a demo. For a while. Um, and, uh.
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At the beginning of this month, I removed the free trial from the marketing site and pushed everyone
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to schedule a demo again. I have gotten zero demos, so I don't think that is. I don't think that was
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the the change. Uh, but I think some combination of me not marketing it enough and the
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product's becoming kind of an opinionated and powerful, but hard to use, um,
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might have been moves in the wrong direction. And so, you know, the hope is
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March 1st, we roll out new, simpler UI. Um, it might we might roll it out sooner. It's pretty close to
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ready. Um, we roll out new, simpler UI with more opinionated workflows. Um,
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I think, like, as we roll out schema and internal links. We're going to do those much better than we
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ever have done them before. We now have keyword research, um, as a component of the tool.
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And, uh, I actually really like it. Um, someone should have told us to do that a while ago. It
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would have been. It's a good thing they've done a lot of time. Never got published. Um,
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it's probably on YouTube, right? I just was like, I don't I didn't ever publish the audio version.
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Yeah. Um. Who knows? Uh, by the way, I guess since I never published that, if someone's only listening
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to this via audio. Uh, I live in Mexico City now. Wow. That
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wasn't clear. Um, but. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm. I'm
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feeling excited to get to work on Metal Monster again and to give it another push, and then we'll
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we'll see what the next few months old. Nice. Yeah. Cool. Um, so what's going on in
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Greenland? What's going on in miscreants land? Um, how many people are just crushing
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it? Per usual. How many crushing me? Uh, do
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you want to take a guess how many people work here at the moment? Full time. Full time? Okay. Only
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full time. Last time we talked, I thought it was like 20, but that included part time. Yes. Um, so are
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you up to 20 full time? I'm up to 18 full time, but we have two more job like openings at the moment.
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If anyone's a senior collateral designer or a senior, whether it's a senior collateral designer,
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like someone who's like, just loves doing decks and data sheets and things like that, like
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marketing collateral. Okay, sort of person I need like a deck person, um, or a senior Webflow
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developer fired up a deck with Claud recently, and it was Really fucking good. It is. It is pretty
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good. It is. It is wild. It it is pretty good. If my whispering is good audio, probably not. But it's
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okay. I can hear it. Um, I think I think, uh, it is pretty good. Okay, so senior collateral designer.
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That's kind of cool. Yeah. Um, so we need one of those, and then also like, uh, like another
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senior Webflow developer. Um, so, yeah, if anyone out there
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wants to work here, what are you up to? Including part time? Uh, it's probably like
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20 something. Depends. 20, 22, 25 somewhere. It just depends on how you count some folks. But,
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um. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many people here. We had an all hands, uh, yesterday.
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Uh oh. So it's our five year anniversary as of Monday, so. Yeah. Dude, he's in here and President's
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Day on the 16th, but congrats. And I'm sure there's other, other things. That's a big fucking deal. Uh,
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yeah. It's longer than any any other commitment I've ever made in my life. Pretty much. It's it's
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like, um. Yeah. Yeah, we have five years. I kind of, um.
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We had an all hands yesterday. I gave a give a talk to the team about sort of needing to
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start shifting, like our strategy of, like, what type of agency we are. I think you and I have
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talked about it a little bit, but I think this is the thing that keeps coming up. And I've spoken to
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other, you know, clients and they resonate with it with like that. We need to be accountable to the
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outcomes instead of output of the work. That's that's so hard though, because so much of the
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outcomes are outside of your control. So you got to figure out how to like, control the outcomes
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for sure. I think there's like, you know, I don't think I don't think we're accountable to like,
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revenue, but it's it's a matter of like, uh, I think the shift in thinking means that, like our
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retainers. Right. Our retainers are currently very output driven. It's you by this many points. So
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would you get as much work as you want to? But that means you lead. You know, you lead the
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strategy of what is happening, which is cool until the retainer keeps growing. And then someone, a new
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marketer, comes in and goes, why aren't we just doing this in-house? Or why don't we get some
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freelancers overseas to start doing it? So yeah. Um. Um, whereas versus if you
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all own strategy, then they're like, oh shit, if we lose that, how are we going to. Right, right. And I
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think we have we're, you know, we're in a unique position to do that because like, we just have
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worked with so many cybersecurity companies, we literally see what works and what doesn't. Yeah.
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And then on the other side, it's it means our retainers gets split into three parts. It's
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strategy execution and like measurement and optimization. Right. So it's like I would love to
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see you write like a comprehensive like playbook for like for cybersecurity brands. But
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I'd be so curious to see Just next thing, all of this down into your out of your head onto paper.
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I'd be so curious. Uh. There is. It is. Work in progress. Um.
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Um. That feels like something you could 100% work with AI to do. Because it doesn't mean to be
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eloquent. It needs to be like it needs to be. Contain your ideas and, like, get them on
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paper. Yeah, 100%. Um, so. So the all hands was sort of like a I've been trying to wrack my brain
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about, like, what is like something to sort of rally us behind for 2026. Right. Like, what is our
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actual goal? And I think like effectiveness is sort of the theme. Um, effectiveness. And like not
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only the outcomes instead of output of the work, but also like, um, different than, like efficient
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working. Um, much more like, uh, you know, like we have these weekly feedback loops with clients.
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Um, we have these weekly feedback loops with clients, which means that, uh, they they they.
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They get to see it week to week. Um, which means every meeting that we like with a new brand
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project, every meeting is almost like a risk because they haven't seen things leading up to it.
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Whereas, like if we get there by in throughout the week, you know, they they see all that. So that's
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that's a level of effectiveness. Another side. Um, so anyway I'm trying to have everyone kind of
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essentially do OKRs with me where they figure out like, what is the thing that they can do to become
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more effective. And I'm sort of helping them shape that. The thing that I'm working on is actually
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essentially like an internal book that we might, you know, make public. It sort of
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centers around this idea of a, uh, have we talked about this, the cult brand framework or the cult
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brand framework? You've talked. You've hinted at it a couple times. I don't know that we've gotten
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super in-depth on it. Gotcha. Um, it comes from two places. One is that every client that works with
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us effectively wants to be a cult brand. When I say cold brand, I mean, like, um.
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Like these customers, like, buy into you. You know, a linear, a notion. Like, they they switch their
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workflows to you is kind of. Exactly. Green is is perfect. A great example of it. Right. And it's
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usually because you are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that
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actually fits said methodology. Yeah. But the methodology you have typically is built off of
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the fact that, yeah, yeah, you, you have like you like so so it kind of goes into like
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identifying what the, uh, like tolerable pain is, is sort of how how I kind of explain it. It's
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like, um, you know, there's, there's different types of pain, right? There's acute pain, like, your neck
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is bleeding. You have to go fix this thing. That's a that's a buying trigger for a lot of companies.
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But it's you know, in this case it's much better for demand gen or for sales to like, you know, go
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for that thing because it's very timely. Right. We don't talk about log log for J the way we used to
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when it first dropped. So it's very temporary. Whereas the chronic there's chronic pain, right?
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Which is like the thing that bothers people constantly. Um, so like it's identifying like, what
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is the chronic pain that exists? Um, and then figuring out like, what is the sort of like trade
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off or copium people smoking their jobs to, uh, effectively like, deal with this
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pain. Um, so, so a good signal is like when someone says it's just the way things have always been,
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which is a common thing in a lot of B2B. Um, what you're saying this is fascinating because I feel
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like this kind of and I think this is a really good thing runs contrary to popular advice, at
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least, like popular bootstrap or advice. Um, because the advice is always like, focus on the
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painkillers. Anything that's not a painkiller like is impossible to build a business around. And like
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if if people say it, you know, it is how it is, then there's not enough motivation to, to change. Um, and
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what you're saying is like, actually, if you, um, if you like, do a good enough job of understanding
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the chronic pain and and presenting a solution to the chronic pain that is easy enough to
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adopt, then then you can actually like win dig that way. Yeah, 100%. Um, so
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yeah, chronic pain I guess is different. Different from like vitamins where like, vitamins aren't
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solving a pain at all. It's they're just like a nice to have. Yeah. And versus like, you know, it's
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almost like the difference between like baby aspirin and opium, not opium,
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opiates, but opioids, whatever. Like morphine. There we go. That's the word I'm looking for.
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Yeah. For sure. And I think, um, you know, I think I think like when you have, like, I think a lot of
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founders, like, identify that by accident and build a product around that, and then they sort of scale
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it and build it. And the messaging gets murky because they kind of like nobody goes and
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articulates that specific, like what it was like the actual like annoyance. You had the itch that
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you scratched. Um, and part of what you're saying is, like, you know, you morphine is
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easy to sell because when someone needs it, they need it really badly. But it's, like, hard to market
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because, like 90% of the time, 99% of the time, people don't need it. Is that part of what you're
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saying to versus like, chronic pain is always there versus like the acute pain is like it's a
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flash in a moment. And like, you might get a spike in sales from an A from acute pain. But like
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you're you're going to like you need something longer lasting. Yeah. Yeah I think that's a yeah.
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That's a that's a great way to put it. Thanks I appreciate it. Um, I think I think it's um, I think
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like, uh, so, so the whole, the whole idea of systems from another like theory I have about, like, um, I
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like, I've always kind of felt very weird about this idea of, like, demand generation as, like what
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it currently is and how other how I've seen other agencies could have do it. Right. And yeah. Um, and I
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think it's like, what I realize is that, like, um, demand is a fluid substance.
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Um, it is it is like a river. And positioning is putting yourself downstream of said river
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marketing, how traditional B2B marketing is positioning somewhere that is green feel that
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nobody is, and then spending a lot of money to plumb said water to you. Yeah, build a canal
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basically. Right. But it's a lot cheaper to just it's a lot cheaper and way more effective to just
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sit there and then also like break the dam or spread open like spread said things. So like this
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idea that like demand like there's probably a lot of latent demand that exists and is untouched, um,
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for your product or if we can identify it. Right. Um, if we can figure out what the latent demand is,
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which is where that tolerable pain comes from, um, you know, so, like, going off of your, your thing is
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like, um, yeah, instead of sort of, like, waiting for people to, uh, feel the pain,
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like, feel their headache acutely. And then they have to go take something much stronger. Like, you
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can sell the thing of, like, here's, here's something to take every single day that makes you
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not, you know. That deals with the chronic sort of pain. So yeah, I feel like metaphors are getting a
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little mixed, but I like where this is going a lot. And, you know, I'm always a big fan of like
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emphasizing pain points and talking about them and clarifying them. And yeah, I think not too many
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companies classic advice, but too many companies get too caught up on solutions. And yeah, trying to
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invent new pains. Yeah. Um, yeah. Cool. I'm really excited to see where you go with this. Um, one
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question before we I got a bounce in just a second, but I'm. I'm really curious. Um, who do you
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think are, like, the best examples of cult brands in the cybersecurity space today? Because, like, I
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think gray noise has lost, has, like, faded a little bit. Like, I don't think they're as as strong as
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they were. So like, who are the. Who are the leaders at the moment? You know, my team asked me the same
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thing. And I don't have an answer for this. Like, okay. Yeah, I, I don't know if I can, uh, you know, I
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think, uh, I think sublime is a good example of one. Um, they immediately came to mind. Yeah. Does rumble
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count or not? Rumble run zero, are they or I think I just don't know enough about them. Um,
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because we haven't really. Yeah. We haven't worked with them. Um, yeah. I mean, honestly, I, I don't know,
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um, uh, I do think that if you know, is in a clear answer, then that means there's space for
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someone to. Yeah, yeah, they've been there. They're cult. I mean, yeah, I
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think so. I think, um, I think the, the, the, the, the flip side of this is like when you don't
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articulate and figure it out, you do run the risk of becoming like like you've built something
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really cool. It obviously scratches an itch for a lot of people. It hit on this lady demand thing,
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but like by not realizing that you've done this and expecting it to just kind of keep on
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ballooning. Um, that like, that's why, you know, like, like thinking about the longevity of
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blockchain or Bitcoin or Stripe or Apple. It's sort of like these companies realize what it what
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these principles are and able to are able to kind of keep executing towards that. So anyway,
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um, uh, cool. Yeah. Long term project at the moment. So love
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it. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, it was good to be back on the mic with you after, uh, an extended hiatus.
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And, um, we'll try to try to do it more regularly and probably fail, but we'll get back to
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it eventually. We'll see. All right. Cool. I'll see you. Can't wait to see where this goes. Peace. All
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right.