Andrew and Sean talk about hiring tools, positioning MetaMonster, and Andrew's struggles to increase his publishing velocity. Meanwhile, Sean is slammed with inbound after RSA, is putting project management systems in place for Margins, and just got a pool table! 

Links:

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:01.27
Sean
What's up?

00:02.35
Andrew
Not much, just digging through job applications for this senior product designer role.

00:07.89
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

00:09.34
Andrew
it

00:09.45
Sean
How's that going? Do you like it?

00:10.30
Andrew
It really makes me want to build an ATS.

00:12.75
Sean
Yeah.

00:14.07
Andrew
i I looked at Home Run again, and

00:15.97
Sean
Uh-huh.

00:20.47
Andrew
it's gone up to, like, their base price starts at, I think, $90 a month or something like that. and JJ has essentially built a, an Excel Google sheets, ATS, uh, which is solid.

00:34.46
Andrew
It's, it's not bad at all.

00:34.71
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:36.55
Andrew
I think the email automation stuff she's been trying to do isn't working yet. then I have spent a chunk of today trying to figure out how to run a script inside of Google sheets that'll,

00:50.78
Andrew
integrate with an AI detection API because so many of these applications are so clearly just copy and pasted from ChatGPT and not actual applications.

01:00.49
Sean
I see. I see.

01:02.97
Andrew
Yeah.

01:03.27
Sean
You can use GPT for sheets.

01:03.42
Andrew
Which

01:06.08
Sean
And then...

01:07.03
Andrew
do you think how how good is ChatGPT at detecting itself?

01:12.38
Sean
I think if you give it a rubric, it it's good. Because, like...

01:15.84
Andrew
I don't know if I know enough to give it a good rubric.

01:18.86
Sean
can give you my, like... You know, it's not a rubric. It's just like, hey, generate this blog post. Don't use these words. Don't use this phrasing. Don't...

01:27.51
Andrew
Yeah, and you could try to kind of reverse that rubric.

01:30.27
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

01:30.85
Andrew
Yeah.

01:31.58
Sean
God, that's funny.

01:33.39
Andrew
Yeah. And, like, there's there's, like, a small part of me that is, like, well, you know, I don't...

01:35.17
Sean
Yeah.

01:42.50
Andrew
I don't have a problem with you using ChatGPT to help you write your application. But if you're clearly just like, if it's 100% copy and pasted from ChatGPT, then I have no way of knowing if it's legit information or not, or if you're just completely bullshitting.

01:53.80
Sean
Yeah.

01:58.15
Andrew
Like, I got several answers to the same question that seemed almost identical.

01:58.74
Sean
Yeah.

02:04.19
Andrew
And I was like, hmm, okay, so this isn't a real life experience you had then probably.

02:08.60
Sean
Yeah, I bet. That's so funny. I bet there's like apps now also like apply with AI like one click and then it just generates that stuff.

02:16.65
Andrew
Oh, I'm sure there are. yeah Yeah, so I mean, I think part of it is...

02:20.17
Sean
How would you build an ATS differently? Let's build a bit sauce.

02:27.31
Andrew
Like, I think it's an area where I would try to compete on price because ATS systems tend to be pretty fucking expensive. And so I think if you tried to be a fairly minimal, simple version that was at more of an entry level price, I think that's like step one.

02:43.52
Andrew
Now, the shitty part is to build even a simple ATS. You're basically building a CRM, an email marketing system, and a form builder all in one. and like kind of a website builder too.

02:54.26
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

02:56.31
Andrew
So it's it's not a simple product.

02:59.09
Sean
Hmm.

02:59.43
Andrew
So I totally understand why they're expensive. But I still think ah ah most of that is sunk cost, not like ongoing cost.

03:10.24
Sean
Yeah. Definitely

03:10.80
Andrew
I don't think they're that expensive to operate. Just you know there's a high barrier to entry to build you the base features you need.

03:14.24
Sean
not.

03:20.98
Sean
Hmm.

03:22.20
Andrew
So I think I'd do some of that. i think I would also, think it could be really interesting. Like I've always been interested in salary transparency and stuff like that.

03:31.98
Andrew
So I think it could be interesting to try to do some like, try to talk people into doing some data sharing around salaries and stuff like that.

03:40.80
Sean
Mm-hmm.

03:41.87
Andrew
on both sides of the equation. i think it would be cool to build in, know, some, I remember when we, I know,

03:52.68
Andrew
when we were trying to care about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and like learn about it, part of what people said you should do is like serve like conduct anonymous surveys to determine you know try to determine if there's what bias there is in your application process and like you know some people say you should hide names from applications and stuff like that and i yeah that kind of stuff

04:25.09
Sean
You could do a lessannoyingATS.com. Yeah.

04:27.83
Andrew
Yeah, like I think, and that kind of stuff was often hidden behind like really high enterprise prices.

04:28.44
Sean
come

04:33.54
Andrew
And so just making that stuff more widely available, offering good rubrics, like good default rubrics for like, here are good application questions. Like here's some templates you can choose from and here's a good rubric to like help you reduce bias in your process and doing some different stuff like that.

04:49.85
Sean
yeah

04:51.78
Andrew
then just trying to make it balance that with also making it reasonably quick to eliminate people who clearly aren't a good fit and then like narrow your list down because those are the two kind of competing priorities for good hiring managers. is like On the one hand, you have a massive stack of applications to get through normally.

05:11.51
Andrew
And on the other hand, you want to be respectful of people and like you you want to get through those in a reasonable amount of time while also giving people their due.

05:15.57
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

05:21.64
Andrew
And so trying to walk that balance with thoughtful tools.

05:21.73
Sean
and

05:24.68
Sean
yeah maybe like hard filters and soft filters as you're going through applicants it'd be cool like you i mean if it's cheaper it's better for smb and then the templates make a lot of sense because i mean hiring is hard your first hundred times i'm pretty sure especially because there's different roles and roles that you haven't been in

05:42.30
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

05:48.40
Sean
and you know, I wonder like on a UX level, you could maybe even just like do it in reverse. Like, hey, like what is the type of person you wanna hire?

05:59.29
Sean
And that also helps you come up with like behavioral questions or whatever. Maybe it plugs into your call recording so it pre-fills a questionnaire.

06:09.27
Sean
Like it's, you know, you you can you can do the initial sort of job application, but then it can, can be with the you through the life i mean it is right with the crm yeah cool want to build an ets you want to build an ets i mean

06:19.69
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting idea. Huh? I have always wanted to build an ATS and also not because it's a lot of fucking work.

06:30.36
Sean
I mean, the cool thing is that, so you know, the things that you said, CRM, email marketing, what else did you say? Like, easy web builder, form builder, like, those are all, they've been built so many times that I'm pretty sure AI understands intrinsically.

06:37.80
Andrew
Form builder.

06:46.90
Sean
No, you don't think so?

06:48.17
Andrew
I still, like, I'm still in the camp of, like, I use AI all the time.

06:50.08
Sean
Mm-hmm.

06:54.45
Andrew
I obviously believe it's a valuable tool.

06:54.49
Sean
Mm-hmm.

06:56.77
Andrew
I'm building a fucking AI tool. And I use it whenever I write code. i Yes, it can generate some things really fast.

07:07.57
Andrew
But as far as getting actual functional usable SaaS applications beyond a proof of concept, no, it is not there. It is not capable of doing that.

07:17.90
Andrew
so like, yes, it could build a pro proof of concept of a CRM. It can't build a functional CRM that is like,

07:23.79
Sean
I can't build a, I can't even think of, I don't think it even builds a functional SaaS with all the different things any SaaS actually needs, you know?

07:30.89
Andrew
Yeah.

07:32.03
Sean
Outside of just auth, like, all the transactional emails, all the, like, multi-tenant, like, organization stuff, like, been trying to do with Lovable, it just, like, struggles.

07:37.46
Andrew
Oh, god, yeah.

07:44.59
Sean
It needs you to, like, walk it through every single thing and give it the database schema and all that stuff, so...

07:46.60
Andrew
Yeah.

07:49.92
Andrew
Yeah, if you're going like page by page, function by function, it is useful for helping you move through stuff quickly.

07:56.18
Sean
Damn.

07:56.42
Sean
Well. Yeah.

07:56.80
Andrew
But it it's not going to just build a CRM for you right off the bat.

08:01.10
Sean
yeah damn

08:03.63
Andrew
Yeah.

08:04.11
Sean
well

08:05.30
Andrew
So I still think you know maybe it's faster. Maybe with a good engineer, you know it would be faster to build an ATS today than it would have been. yeah Maybe it goes from yeah six months a year to get to feature parity, basic feature parity, to like three to six months.

08:22.48
Andrew
But I don't think it goes to like three weeks.

08:25.26
Sean
yeah Yeah, probably not. Probably not.

08:29.04
Andrew
Maybe, i don't know, Rails, you know, a good Rails dev can probably crank out a lot of this kind of stuff, or Laravel dev, Laravel, whatever.

08:41.49
Sean
Yeah. I don't know.

08:42.78
Andrew
a little bit faster.

08:43.54
Sean
what do you Have you seen all these like MVP agencies that have popped up since the dawn of like lovable bolt and all that stuff? like They'll just build you. Yeah. I'm We talked to you a couple in the past.

08:56.89
Sean
They all seem, I mean, as someone with not a lot of money, it seems very enticing, you know, get an MVP in three weeks for 4K or even like 10K in like a month.

09:09.44
Sean
Yeah. I don't know.

09:10.49
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, Brian was doing this with his one-month.app, Brian Castle, and he kind of found the thing that we all find, which is like, even with AI in one month, he could get you to something that demonstrated your idea and was technically a functional application.

09:14.44
Sean
Right. Right.

09:21.95
Sean
Mm-hmm.

09:28.89
Andrew
But in most cases, it was going to take more than a month to get to something that actually provided enough value for users to sign up for it.

09:36.51
Sean
Yeah. yeah

09:39.10
Andrew
And so the one month was kind of a starting point, not an ending point.

09:39.23
Sean
Yeah.

09:42.81
Sean
Yeah.

09:42.93
Andrew
And I think that's, you know, you ran into this with margins, right?

09:44.43
Sean
But then you spend, you know, but like, as an agency.

09:48.47
Andrew
Like margins, it's like, yeah, he got a first version of margins built in like three or four weeks, but it wasn't production ready.

09:55.32
Sean
Mm-hmm.

09:57.28
Andrew
It was like proof of concept.

09:59.32
Sean
for sure for sure well yeah for what it's worth we did but the sow was for the proof of concept but yeah 100 there's like expecting it still to be like three months a lot more money ran into it with uh the internal app we're building like the version control for webflow thing yeah

10:05.55
Andrew
Yeah.

10:18.02
Andrew
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

10:21.13
Sean
it works for like a project and then it starts to really and then also lovable like the context window is just so big that like lovable just starts struggling and getting really lazy and then yeah i'm like you know into season four of sopranos at this point which by watching it while vibe cutting you know it's just yeah

10:45.61
Sean
Yeah, one day. One day, one day. Or, you know, we just hire a couple of devs and build an ATS. And call it less annoying ATS.

10:55.13
Andrew
We could do that, yeah.

10:56.73
Sean
I don't want to and want to do that.

10:59.05
Andrew
I do genuinely think i would like building an ATS, it would be a cool product to build.

11:03.89
Sean
I don't ah can't dont to market an ATS.

11:07.47
Sean
you know Yeah, I don't know.

11:07.68
Andrew
really?

11:09.48
Sean
I just don't care about it enough.

11:11.61
Andrew
I've always cared about hiring.

11:14.37
Sean
makes sense makes sense i mean i care about hiring people into i guess not the not the process of it i don't it doesn't it doesn't excite me so well but i think maybe you should i mean

11:25.01
Andrew
Yeah, I've always found the process pretty interesting. Yeah. Maybe I should build an ATS.

11:33.95
Andrew
I got to get this Metal Monster thing working hopefully first.

11:35.24
Sean
eight people monster That sounds terrible.

11:39.17
Andrew
People Monster is funny.

11:40.02
Sean
Don't call people Monster.

11:41.95
Andrew
It's kind of horrible and great at the same time.

11:47.48
Sean
I mean, Monster was a hiring platform, I think. Like an Indeed. How's it going?

11:50.86
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Monster.com.

11:52.60
Sean
Okay.

11:52.68
Andrew
Yeah. It one of the OGs. got an update on the cold email stuff.

11:55.30
Sean
it going?

11:58.80
Sean
okay how's it going

12:00.29
Andrew
I, we, let's see. Okay. How do I put this?

12:06.31
Andrew
It's going. I'm getting responses. yeah i'm I'm now only sending the cold email that won, the looking for feedback AI-powered screaming frog.

12:13.46
Sean
Mm-hmm.

12:17.28
Andrew
I'm only sending that. I have experimented with sending follow-ups, and they don't seem to do anything. um If I get responses, it's on the first email and not any of the follow-ups.

12:28.74
Andrew
So I've just killed all the follow-ups. so I'm only sending one email. I'm like, which I feel like goes counter to all, you the cold email guru advice. And I'm getting responses.

12:39.38
Andrew
And most of the responses are going nowhere. Like, people are like, ooh, sounds interesting. I want to try it out. And then I tell them that there's a credit card required. And they either disappear or they get mad at me or they are like, eh, not that interested.

12:48.30
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

12:55.42
Andrew
And so part of me was thinking about building... you switching up our free trial to not require a credit card, maybe switching to like a a credit system where you get 100 credits or something for free, and then you have to you know upgrade to to get more credits.

13:13.27
Andrew
But i I think I'm going to first try to just experiment with my messaging a little bit, because I can see how my messaging would be slightly misleading. So try to make it clear that like when I say I'm asking for feedback, I'm talking about asking for feedback on a paid product.

13:30.81
Andrew
And like it won't cost you anything to try it, but it is a paid product. It's not just something I'm giving away totally for free forever.

13:39.79
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

13:40.34
Andrew
And so i I think I want to try to make that a little bit more clear first and see if that if that helps manage expectations better, even if it means fewer responses, if the responses are you know are more interested.

13:54.20
Andrew
But I've also been thinking a lot about positioning. And i I think we might be positioning the product wrong by trying to call it AI-powered Screaming Frog.

14:05.27
Sean
Yeah, I think you i think you alluded to that last time we spoke about it, because it is more more um

14:12.68
Andrew
Well, it's it's like two things. One, right now it's less than that. Right now it's just a metadata generator.

14:18.59
Sean
Yes.

14:19.35
Andrew
So right now it's less than that.

14:22.86
Andrew
And the value is not, like Screaming Frog is purely a site audit tool. Like it is, that is what it's made for.

14:28.79
Sean
Mm-hmm.

14:30.47
Andrew
And yes, you can kind of hack it with AI integrations and stuff to do some generation, but it's really not built for that. It's built to be a technical auditing tool.

14:41.87
Andrew
And the more I've been looking around at the market, the more I realized that like audit tools are just kind of cheap. Like for the most part, the audit, there's there's a subset of like enterprise level audit tools that can handle millions of pages.

14:51.08
Sean
Yeah.

14:58.08
Sean
yeah

14:58.16
Andrew
And those are super expensive. like we don't, we wouldn't really work for those people. And I wouldn't really know how to sell to the enterprise. It's not something I really want to do.

15:10.78
Andrew
And so when you look at the, like, SMB, like, Ahrefs now gives away their site audit tool for free. um And, you know, Sitebulb's desktop version is really cheap, and even their paid version comes with, like, millions of yeah URLs, and so feels fairly inexpensive.

15:28.69
Andrew
Screaming Frog is cheap or free. And so I'm just, I'm worried that, like, by positioning ourselves against Screaming Frog, we're kind of positioning ourselves, like,

15:38.61
Andrew
Against like these cheap tools that people don't really want to pay a bunch of money for. And there's also this thing where like, I'm not actually sure the value, like right now, the value is not the audit.

15:53.98
Andrew
The value is the generation. And then in the future, the value is gonna be kind of the ability to audit things in a do like different types of analysis.

16:06.46
Andrew
The value is gonna be in the flexibility, the the ability to like customize it to your process, the ability to analyze things that are hard to analyze with today's tools, and and then to do generation, to do, and like, I don't wanna be a like an SEO writer.

16:16.75
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

16:24.29
Andrew
i don't wanna be a content generator. But i'm trying to figure out like what category we really fit against. And like the the products that I think are more interesting and compelling are like your ClearScope, your Surfer SEO, which are both more focused on on-page SEO and like content auditing more than site auditing.

16:50.10
Andrew
And then you're like, you're Aerops, which is all about like scaling content. And it seems like the the pattern that I'm seeing is like, you know, a focus on content more than like sites or technical audits or things like that. It seems like that's where more of the focus is. Yeah.

17:14.28
Andrew
And so I'm trying to figure out, I don't know what to do with that yet, but it's just like this positioning challenge is bubbling around in my head right now a lot.

17:23.94
Sean
I think the hunch makes sense because so I've never felt weird about it being called ai Screaming Frog Alternative because I think it's just like emotionally like, oh, seems cool, would click.

17:37.04
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

17:38.37
Sean
But I have always felt weird when you've called it like a site audit tool, especially as we've kind of gone more and more into like talking about but like clay for websites.

17:48.24
Sean
And I think it makes sense because like fundamentally it's like automate your workflow so that you would normally do for, that you would use a human for, for your website.

17:58.85
Sean
feel like yeah.

18:01.34
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

18:10.32
Sean
yeah

18:12.75
Sean
i think the I think the hard part right that it runs into is just like the jobs in a org. great You have a content marketer. content marketer understands the value of SEO. So then maybe uses a surfer or or even Ahrefs to like do SEO keyword research.

18:29.58
Sean
And then they you know you use something like Aerofs to like generate a bunch of content at scale. That's one way. and then there's like digital marketing managers that care.

18:41.20
Sean
like maybe maybe there's some cool things. You know, when you when you've built the full sort of like workflow platform, maybe there's a way to like tie user journeys into this, like with your site.

18:57.99
Sean
Yeah, like maybe there's like other, I wonder what other types of audits there are, right? Like conversion, user journey, site and kind site in SEO, or site and content.

19:12.18
Sean
Yeah, i don't know. Yeah.

19:14.46
Andrew
I don't either. I'm not sure. I've just been getting increasingly getting the feeling that like part of our challenge is positioning.

19:21.37
Sean
Mm-hmm.

19:22.15
Andrew
Like it's easy to so point at, oh, the free trial. We don't have a enough of a free trial and we don't have our price point is too high. Like we need a lower

19:31.79
Sean
Mm-hmm.

19:33.80
Andrew
lower your cost entry point. We need like a free, some sort of free, you know, free no credit card required trial. Like, and I see the logic for that. you know, we're new to market. We don't have any trust, any brand loyalty built up. So like, maybe that's just where we need to start in order to build trust.

19:52.98
Andrew
But then I look at these, the tools that we want to most be like the clear scope, the surfer, the air ops, air ops has a free tier admittedly. But Surfer and ClearScope don't even not have free tiers. They don't have free trials.

20:10.45
Andrew
You pay day one.

20:12.27
Sean
Yeah.

20:12.40
Andrew
And And ah ClearScope doesn't even have a money back guarantee. They're like, you can cancel any time, but you're paying for it.

20:16.52
Sean
Yeah. yeah but Yeah, but it's ClearScope, you know? It's kind of like... it's yeah What are you going to do to not use ClearScope? I and just wait

20:27.24
Andrew
I didn't know that many people use ClearScope. I didn't know ClearScope had that strong a brand reputation.

20:31.91
Sean
i say

20:31.98
Andrew
I don't feel like people outside of like hardcore marketing circles ever hear of ClearScope. Like Ahrefs, yeah, ClearScope.

20:42.32
Sean
I think it's that era of like when WordPress was big and it would wordpress eight like WordPress SEO agencies and I feel like that's where I kind of heard it from the most where, you know, they were getting offshore writers to write things, told them to use ClearScope or would copy paste into ClearScope, make edits, publish the WordPress.

20:53.44
Andrew
Hmm.

21:03.27
Sean
And I feel like that's when I've heard it. So I guess it is for like those heart, like those hardcore guys. Yeah.

21:14.68
Sean
Huh.

21:16.20
Sean
I mean,

21:17.50
Sean
I think, you know, the awareness of the problem is there. Just got to go fix it. I think, I think you're right about the problem though.

21:26.23
Andrew
you You think I'm right in that positioning ourselves against screaming frog is not the right strategy.

21:32.29
Sean
Yes, I think i think positioning. Well, I think no, I think positioning yourselves against a site audit tool is not the right strategy.

21:39.04
Andrew
Okay.

21:39.10
Sean
I think overall website positioning against Screaming Frog is probably because of that. Also not the right strategy. I think if I were going to run an ad campaign post you building all this stuff, I would still just run an ad that said AI powered like AI Screaming Frog purely because it's like clickable.

21:56.94
Andrew
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

21:58.06
Sean
But I think another reason to why you're right about it being positioned against SiteOd is like, if you go to AppSumo, right, there's a bunch of them and they're super cheap. And, you know, there they come in every different flavor in color and color and, you know, who knows how good they are, but yeah.

22:16.30
Sean
Yeah. I mean, i the value, I guess, isn't the audit. The value is the edit afterwards. The audit is just the thing that lets you edit it better. Yeah, I mean, going back to the conversation about pricing, right? You're not pricing by number of sites crawled. You're pricing by number of generations, for example, because that's where the value is. so

22:39.32
Andrew
Although we're pricing off of pages crawled right now, which is maybe wrong.

22:43.38
Sean
Yeah.

22:44.67
Sean
how's the How's the overall team motivation around the project? OK.

22:48.19
Andrew
I think we're still feeling pretty good. Austin's definitely excited about the new stuff.

22:54.23
Sean
Cool.

22:54.99
Andrew
We've been learning a lot. He rolled out just a ah ah really simple kind of brittle chat interface that has a really basic agent behind it.

23:05.86
Andrew
So you can... This isn't available to everyone, but for folks who have access behind the feature flag, which is you and me, you can you can go to a site, index that site, which will vectorize it and store the vector embeddings in a vector database.

23:15.39
Sean
Hell yeah.

23:26.18
Andrew
And then you can start interacting with this simple agent that'll try its best to, you know, use a handful of tools that we've established, couple of vector search tools, and then a couple of other basic like counting tools and stuff like that.

23:39.67
Andrew
and use these tools to to answer different queries, to execute prompts on against your your website.

23:49.96
Andrew
so we've been experimenting with that, and it's not working that well yet, but it's really interesting. it's a

23:56.32
Sean
I see.

23:57.73
Andrew
We're learning a lot about like how to get the most out of an agentic system, and how vector search works and what it's good for and what it's not. ah We also caught some problems with our crawler home that we hadn't noticed before, the like just content missing that we didn't notice until we started trying to like figure out why the AI wasn't giving us the output we were expecting.

24:13.62
Sean
i see

24:25.97
Andrew
So that was interesting. But... Yeah, so i think I think we're still feeling relatively optimistic. I mean, it's hard, like, today everyone's talking about Google I.O. and talking about how, like, Google's saying search is going to change even more.

24:42.36
Andrew
At the same time, two days ago, I saw, you know, some really compelling numbers that are, like, pretty far off from like search being dead and so i'm trying to balance that roller coaster as well of just like because there is another question and like lingering in the back of my mind a little bit of just like is seo like you know justin jackson likes to talk about riding a wave and how it's just so much easier when you're riding a growing wave instead of a shrinking wave and like

24:49.11
Sean
Sure. Sure.

25:12.43
Sean
sure sure

25:17.33
Andrew
ah ah SEO is massive. It's still massive. And like the numbers that I'm seeing from Rand Fishkin's latest research suggests that it hasn't stopped growing yet, actually.

25:28.79
Andrew
But like, is it the wave that we really want to be on or not? There's still a little voice in the back of my head that's like, this might be a bad choice of wave.

25:40.95
Andrew
but But in in general, i yeah, I'm not.

25:46.29
Sean
yeah but but like the the like the other type the other story is true right of like like how many times do we do we also hear about like success stories like sad success stories where they like didn't necessarily ride the wave the market was just big it like was big enough for them to just keep going and they just start doing it yeah

26:07.68
Andrew
And this is a big-ass market, and it's probably going to take a long time for this market to die entirely. So...

26:13.96
Sean
but yeah i mean i think fund well i think like two thoughts one uh there's different types there's b2b seo there's b2c and then there's like local rank and stuff right and they all like like local local ranking like google my business seo is not dead it's very much alive and people are if anything like i hear more and more people talking about it and like launching apps around all that sort of stuff

26:27.89
Andrew
Hmm?

26:42.31
Andrew
Yeah. It's funny. A friend just sent me an app that he's like, I think this is kind of like MetaMonster for Google My Business. And like the guy, all of his marketing is just like low fidelity Loom videos like you've been talking about.

26:48.87
Sean
Mm-hmm.

26:51.95
Andrew
And I was like, all right, cool.

26:54.11
Sean
Yeah, yeah. I mean, i can, you know, i think outside of it, just like like future product vision, i think there's a lot there too, right? I think. ah ah Yeah, and also, I don't know, like SEO has always been in an evolving game and with like, you know, there's just always a new meta and this is just a new meta will be birthed out of it.

27:15.62
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

27:18.10
Sean
People will just, I think people will just cycle back to mm-hmm.

27:21.98
Andrew
And the nice thing is like the tool we're building is all about flexibility. It's all about, you know, it can really do whatever you you shape it to do.

27:31.54
Sean
Yeah.

27:31.54
Andrew
And so, yeah, that hopefully positions us if we need to pivot quickly into something a little bit different.

27:31.65
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

27:39.13
Andrew
Like, okay, the tooling's already there. it doesn't Tooling doesn't need to change massively. It's just, you know how we talk about it, how we present it, the templates we choose from.

27:46.31
Sean
Yeah, I mean you're building you're building like a utility belt that all interconnect, right? Like I think, I was just thinking about when I said like the, you don't just audit, you edit.

27:58.41
Sean
like But also I was thinking about like our use case right now with MetaMonster is that I you know i use it to scrape sites and I use it to like, yeah, think a

28:10.77
Sean
i think i think that I think whatever you guys are building is right. I think we just have to figure out to call it.

28:17.27
Sean
Yeah. on On the one, on the note about SEO, like maybe like SEO for the past eight years will be different, but the game is just about indexability and that'll never die because the internet and exists.

28:33.08
Andrew
Yeah, I'm not super worried.

28:35.13
Sean
Yeah.

28:35.39
Andrew
Yeah, like, you know, we pivot into offering an LLMs.txt

28:36.73
Sean
Mm-hmm.

28:42.22
Sean
Yeah.

28:43.41
Andrew
generation capability so that you, you know.

28:46.77
Sean
That's pretty sweet. You should just do that. You should just... That's, like, hot right now.

28:51.48
Andrew
Yeah, yeah.

28:52.22
Sean
Yeah, i I think you don't have to I think you can just ride mini waves to build more growth towards.

28:52.66
Andrew
the

28:57.33
Andrew
I think so. i think I think that's right.

28:58.24
Sean
Yeah.

29:00.09
Andrew
Yeah, and and in general, I feel that way. It's just hard every now and then when you, you know, I'm, maybe I'm too gullible, but I see Mike King talking about all the crazy shit coming out of Google I.O.

29:07.96
Sean
Mm-hmm.

29:12.81
Andrew
and I'm like, oh, fuck, this is going to be, what do we do here? But yeah, that's that's just kind of SEO in a nutshell.

29:21.76
Sean
Yeah.

29:22.65
Andrew
It's really not that different from how it's always been.

29:24.35
Sean
Listen, if it doesn't work, you can always hire build another ATS that's not even a wave.

29:27.37
Andrew
Yeah.

29:28.87
Sean
That's like still water.

29:30.15
Andrew
It's just good old boring software.

29:32.30
Sean
Yeah.

29:32.46
Andrew
but

29:33.40
Sean
Yeah.

29:36.70
Sean
Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I haven't tried out the demo yet. I will at some point. Sorry. Mm-hmm.

29:42.49
Andrew
That's probably good. It's getting better as as we're using it.

29:45.02
Sean
Nice. That's

29:45.45
Andrew
So i Austin's been pushing some small updates to try to like optimize the tooling.

29:45.62
Sean
That's

29:51.42
Andrew
And so I need to go play with the latest version.

29:54.22
Sean
nice

29:55.29
Andrew
But it's been fun to play with. you can There's a little toggle for logs. And so if you toggle on the logs, you can actually see the like logic going on behind the scenes and like which tools it's calling and the responses it's getting from those and the queries it's passing to them.

30:04.06
Sean
that's cool

30:07.99
Sean
that's cool

30:10.44
Andrew
And so I think I'm going to record some videos, you know, this week or next week, running just some interesting queries and like talking about what we're learning behind the scenes.

30:22.59
Sean
sick cool cool okay well i'll try it i'll try it eventually i'll try it after this slog of a week

30:30.69
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. Tell me what's going on in your world.

30:35.91
Sean
so you know how i always complain how clients uh don't start their conference planning and their timelines until like six weeks before the conference be careful what you wish for because all of them have started thinking about black hat already which means

30:46.96
Andrew
Yeah.

30:53.20
Andrew
And Black Hat's like three months away, you said?

30:55.23
Sean
yeah yeah and since there's three months it's like way more fucking work so yeah yeah exactly because they're planning earlier so we've had a lot of but we've had a lot of inbounds since rsa everyone wants something before black hat everyone wants to redesign or re-whatever and

30:59.61
Andrew
Oh, they just want more in the three months. Great. Yeah. Yeah.

31:15.83
Sean
uh the timeline's not terrible for what it's worth like you know we can get 13 13 14 weeks since inbound started it's shortening every single day but it's just like layers and layers of clients and projects and we well that's you know that's why we're hiring uh so anyone listening to this bye

31:36.93
Andrew
yep

31:40.42
Sean
if your attention is If your retention is a minute 32 of this podcast, you should apply. Just tell us that you listened to this for 32 minutes. Oh,

31:50.73
Andrew
Yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn or something. well I'll drop the application link in the show notes, actually. That's what I should do.

31:58.34
Sean
thanks.

31:58.59
Andrew
I'll drop the application link in the show notes. And if anyone's listening to this and wants to come work at Ms.

32:00.79
Sean
Perfect.

32:03.21
Andrew
Grants as a senior product designer and...

32:05.74
Sean
Not even just a senior product designer. I mean, we're hiring like other Webflow developers, were hiring other designers. like

32:11.56
Andrew
Man, if you only you had an ATS with like a careers page where all of these could applications could live and like the job descriptions and...

32:15.99
Sean
that would be that would be That would be so cool. You know there's not a good ATS that syncs with Webflow, so,

32:22.34
Andrew
o

32:23.37
Sean
Yeah. ATI,

32:24.44
Andrew
I mean, to be fair, most of the ATS systems out there, that's applicant tracking system systems, most of the ATSs out there at but said the ats is out there just have, like, you know, you can, like, point a subdomain at it or something.

32:33.09
Sean
AT. eighteen

32:40.21
Sean
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah anyway that's been my life lot of sales calls i think it like i like three in the three in a row last friday we have one later today isn't it cool cool cool

32:53.23
Andrew
It was supposed to be earlier today, and he canceled. So I think, you know, my guess is he'll reschedule at some point.

33:00.13
Sean
Okay, this one.

33:00.40
Andrew
He's got my link.

33:01.53
Sean
Nice. Yeah, we've got another one. Just sent out like four proposals today from last week.

33:07.71
Andrew
Hell yeah.

33:10.01
Sean
It's good. I don't know. Success is a trap, I guess. it's Yeah.

33:14.02
Andrew
Sure is.

33:15.17
Sean
Yeah. um Margins is moving.

33:20.48
Andrew
Cool.

33:21.62
Sean
we had a meeting yesterday, figured we should actually like you know use a project management board, so we're trying linear for for this with the dev. Figured we should actually scope out, now that now that we've had like the prototype and all that stuff, we just scope everything else out.

33:42.79
Sean
That's

33:42.79
Andrew
I'm available to hire as a product manager whenever you want.

33:45.78
Sean
Cool. Okay. Let's see in chat. At least if you want to take a look at whatever. I haven't done any of it yet. Yeah, if you want to if you want to be tricked into a co-working session.

33:58.11
Sean
Thanks.

33:59.10
Andrew
Sure. I owe you a co-working session because you did that cold email co-working session with me that was basically like a free coaching session. So even though my emails outperformed all of yours.

34:06.85
Sean
Thanks, thanks.

34:10.90
Sean
I know. That's what i was going to say. Yeah. You just didn't let it run long enough. You should just spend more money.

34:17.61
Andrew
Yeah, that's it.

34:17.70
Sean
this just do have Yeah. It's not my fault.

34:20.38
Andrew
Sure.

34:21.11
Sean
Yeah.

34:24.05
Andrew
So what's the latest, like you guys are putting some process behind margins. You're trying to like get, figure out what the next round of updates are going to look like.

34:33.44
Sean
Yeah, yeah, trying to figure out, like right now we're at like phase zero, we're trying to figure out what phase one actually looks like, write those things. And I don't know, Webflow sent an email today telling people that certain things are being deprecated.

34:51.29
Sean
we were obviously not on that list because we don't exist yet, but June 27th doesn't feel at all like a timeline we're going to hit. Yeah.

34:59.52
Andrew
That's tough. Yeah, that's five weeks away.

35:00.57
Sean
yeah

35:03.54
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of sad, but it's okay. I mean, whatever.

35:10.36
Andrew
Yeah.

35:11.57
Sean
Hopefully we get to like phase one by then.

35:15.30
Sean
That's it, really. my Yeah, my entire life is miscarriage agency. Sopranos. and And a little bit of margins.

35:27.67
Sean
Oh, I got a pool table. I tell you that?

35:29.45
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you did.

35:30.15
Sean
Yeah. About a pool table.

35:30.77
Andrew
It's here, though?

35:31.70
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

35:33.06
Andrew
Cool.

35:33.35
Sean
About a pool table.

35:33.85
Andrew
Are you a pool shark yet?

35:35.07
Sean
No. I'm so fucking bad. like My cousin, who is like the intern at this law firm, is the one who hooked me up with one of the managing partners there.

35:46.64
Sean
Who's like... you know selling or getting rid of one of his houses or something and he's like do you want this pool table it's a nice pool table yeah and he came over and like wrecked me six zeros now i owe him six bucks yeah yeah

35:53.90
Andrew
Sick.

36:01.82
Andrew
It's probably a good ah ah good amount to be betting given your current skill level.

36:07.97
Sean
yeah

36:09.22
Andrew
A dollar dollar per game.

36:09.32
Sean
yeah yeah ah dollar for forgive yeah

36:14.05
Sean
yeah

36:14.17
Andrew
How do you get better at pool? I guess you just play pool.

36:17.35
Sean
No, no, there's like there's like pool best practice.

36:17.43
Andrew
That's wild.

36:19.31
Sean
You know, I had it so took a whole semester of pool in college.

36:22.67
Andrew
while I mean, there's like, i know i know there's like follow through and there's like technique to, you know, holding the cue and, you know, keeping your shot smooth and steady.

36:25.22
Sean
Which is fabulous.

36:33.45
Sean
Mm-hmm.

36:36.15
Andrew
And I know that there's also like, you know, there's technique like putting English on the ball to control the spin of the ball and all of that. But i don't I don't know like how you get better at seeing the angles and like getting the angles right other than just practicing.

36:49.02
Sean
So.

36:53.63
Sean
Well, yeah, I mean, there's there's drills and you practice the drills. think like you have to, okay, so like if I were to lay it out or at least lay it out for myself, it's like there's like the best practices and then understanding like pool, like ball theory.

37:08.88
Sean
Like if you hit a cue ball on the right or the bottom or the top of whatever, you make these types of shots and then you practice these types of shots on these different types of drills and the drills get harder and harder.

37:19.69
Sean
Or you just watch this guy on TikTok who like throws the cue ball on the thing and then the eight ball and then he spins a bottle and and the the bottle tells him which hole hit it in and he nails it every single time. And you just try to do that and completely fail every single time.

37:30.40
Andrew
That's fun.

37:33.65
Andrew
You should sign up for a pool tournament in like six months and to force yourself to get better at pool.

37:44.70
Sean
That's not to happen. I'm not going to do that.

37:47.21
Andrew
That's like, that's, that's what I would do. I would just like sign up for some, you know, find some way to like force myself to actually practice.

37:55.52
Sean
You and I do that.

37:55.66
Andrew
I've been thinking a lot lately about just like,

37:58.75
Andrew
you know, yeah no, no.

37:59.01
Sean
A marathon?

38:01.28
Andrew
Like i I am just realizing more and more that the only way to make myself do things is to have some amount of social pressure and like a deadline and yeah, just like social pressure slash accountability and a deadline.

38:18.67
Andrew
And if I don't have those two things, it's like, shit will get done just like way, way, way more slowly and sometimes not get done at all.

38:24.75
Sean
you know that me so so i've been reading substack a lot and my substack has a lot of people talking about high agency and all that stuff and a lot of the people talk about high agency is like you're not supposed to need those things to be like high agency like i'm so fucked well yeah

38:40.49
Andrew
If that's true, I'm fucked.

38:44.85
Andrew
Yeah. I think that's bullshit, though. I mean, that's that's like some... like and that, that feels very much like productivity, like productivity porn bullshit.

38:55.07
Sean
Fair. yeah

38:57.22
Andrew
I think everyone needs some amount of like in varying degrees.

38:57.59
Sean
yeah

39:01.13
Andrew
Sure. I also have diagnosed ADHD. And so yeah, there's reasons that maybe I need more than more incentive or accountability than, than other people do in some areas.

39:05.70
Sean
Right. Right.

39:16.75
Andrew
But I think that like, I mean,

39:17.57
Sean
Sure.

39:20.30
Andrew
you know Atomic Habits is not a perfect book, but like half of what Atomic Habits is about is like, don't rely on this ironclad will and like incredible self-discipline, just build systems that help make things easier for you.

39:36.38
Andrew
And so I think, you know, if you're high agency, maybe that looks like you don't need those things. Maybe it looks like you take the initiative to set up the systems to make sure to like,

39:48.05
Sean
True.

39:49.04
Andrew
account for the areas where you struggle.

39:52.68
Sean
Listen, all I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll make myself feel better with your words. Speaking of ADHD, you hit me up today about wanting to do things faster or...

39:59.55
Andrew
Yeah.

40:04.37
Andrew
Yeah, I just...

40:04.92
Sean
More. Hmm.

40:07.01
Andrew
i I feel like I've been in a season for a while now of like, just, I don't know if this is the scientifically accurate way to describe it, but I feel like my ADHD comes in waves where, you know, I'll have these bursts of time, usually where, when I'm excited about a new project or something where I'll, I'll be pretty focused and and able to get like, get stuff done. And I'll feel like I'm, I have good systems and I have good habits and I'm,

40:37.31
Andrew
I'm, you know, I'm cranking, I'm moving, I'm making progress. And then I have these, these seasons, uh, or waves where i just feel like my head is spinning all the time. And it's just like, it's so hard to get it to slow down enough to point it in a direction. And, uh, it's really hard to get over that, like the empty page problem.

41:00.13
Sean
Mm-hmm.

41:00.62
Andrew
and I've just for a while now, I think I've been feeling stuck in that and I'm, you know i'm getting stuff out. I got a couple of videos out this week. You know, I've, I've got a rough draft of a blog post sitting in Lex waiting to be edited. So I'm, I'm, it's not like I'm not creating anything, but I'm just at the same time, you know, part of me feels like for Metamonster to be successful, I just need to, I need to have a higher velocity.

41:30.50
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

41:30.63
Andrew
Like I look at, you know I've listened to like Rob Walling's advice and he's like, half of being a successful founder is just like not getting stuck and like trying shit really fast and being right you slightly more than you're wrong.

41:48.04
Andrew
And I just don't feel like my velocity is all that high on on things. and And maybe it's a matter of perspective, but a I've just been feeling like I'm personally moving slowly on things.

42:01.31
Sean
Yeah, I get that. I think the amount of like post, like post the velocity of people saying they've done XYZ thing has also just increased with, I don't know. I don't know if it's your social feeds are like this, but like, you know, somebody's launching something and like there's more and more people launching things every single day and they're doing XYZ things.

42:28.96
Sean
But,

42:30.14
Sean
yeah i mean that being said it's not like they're necessarily doing the right thing slash you know you can say you launched the sas product in three weeks with lovable but shit it might suck you know

42:45.48
Andrew
Yeah, I just, I feel like I,

42:48.64
Sean
or do you feel like you're doing the right work even if it's not the right speed

42:54.00
Andrew
o

42:55.100
Andrew
don't know, it's hard to say. I'm in, I'm in the messy middle of like, you know, pre-product market fit. And so it's, it's really hard to say for sure if I'm doing the right work. I mean,

43:08.16
Andrew
yeah, I just, I just feel like I should be trying more things than I am.

43:11.72
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

43:13.34
Andrew
I feel like I should be, know, putting out more videos or more content, you know, cranking out, cranking out pages you know, free tools and experimenting with pricing. And yeah, i just, and maybe that's, again, maybe it's just a matter of perspective. Maybe I'm,

43:37.25
Andrew
You know, you can be chaotic. You can just kind of be constantly changing your mind. And, you know, you can change pricing too fast and take the wrong lessons away from things, sure.

43:48.22
Sean
Yeah, you can spend...

43:50.41
Andrew
But and just, I can't shake the feeling that I'm like, yeah, that I need to be trying more things.

43:51.39
Sean
Yeah.

43:58.44
Sean
Hmm.

43:58.64
Sean
Hmm.

44:00.69
Andrew
Yeah.

44:02.62
Sean
How long has it been since you've been feeling this way?

44:07.27
Andrew
I feel like probably six months or more.

44:10.91
Sean
Is that when you...

44:12.62
Sean
went full-time on this? Has been six months?

44:14.44
Andrew
No.

44:15.43
Sean
Has been longer? I can't. It's all a blur.

44:17.66
Andrew
I mean, it depends on your definition of full time. Like I, you know, Austin and I started working on Metamonster in like September of last year. you know, that was five, eight months ago.

44:25.58
Sean
Right. Yeah.

44:31.60
Sean
Hmm.

44:32.65
Andrew
i it's only been the last like, month and a half that I haven't had any client work, um, and that I've been, you know, sort of full-time on it.

44:46.70
Andrew
so I don't know.

44:49.08
Sean
You need some social accountability.

44:51.78
Andrew
Possibly. Yeah. So like one of the things I've been thinking about, so you know, I have, I have like, I've created these systems for myself where, you know, I have social accountability to show up and go to the gym. I pay for like a virtual personal trainer through TrainWell.

45:07.100
Sean
nice.

45:08.40
Andrew
And so I go to the gym really consistently now. I have just started, I've been wanting to build a meditation and mindfulness practice for years, and I've always struggled to do it.

45:18.10
Sean
Nice. Mm-hmm.

45:21.06
Andrew
and i was talking to my therapist about it and he was like we decided that he would be my accountability partner and so you know text him every time i meditate and our goal my goal is four times a week um uh and then each session when i show up we'll talk about whether i hit my goal or not and talk about like what i'm learning from meditation and then you know go into our normal session.

45:50.00
Andrew
I'm trying to build a system there. And so I've partially been thinking a little bit about like I don't, I can't really afford, i don't feel, at least I don't feel like I can afford, you know, a business coach.

46:03.58
Andrew
And to some degree, my therapist is the best business coach I've ever had. Like, I haven't had great success with coaches, but I've been thinking a little bit about, like, should I try to find, like, a writing group or something, some sort of, like,

46:07.11
Sean
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

46:19.11
Andrew
mass Mastermind, I think, is like kind of the wrong fit because I want the focus to be on creation of some kind of like, know, creating videos, creating blog posts, creating tools, you

46:31.28
Sean
yeah

46:40.44
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I get that. um it It feels like me on the weekends, for what it's worth.

46:46.59
Andrew
What do you mean?

46:46.93
Sean
Or or like once it hits 5, 6 o'clock. Or the weekends. like I'm definitely... So I also, I think, operate off of a very specific amount of accountability, which is like, I've promised the client I would have something by a certain date.

47:01.41
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

47:05.45
Sean
And they've paid me for it. And therefore, in my brain, it's like, have to do this thing.

47:09.32
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

47:09.96
Sean
a degree. To a degree. to like or Or at least that's always been like the most powerful amount of accountability because, you know, I have a meeting with this person in an hour, so I need to make sure it's going to be done in the morning so I can present about it and talk about it.

47:28.99
Sean
uh on the weekends i don't have meetings and because i don't have meetings like i have nothing to show for it or sorry sorry i'm or like i end the weekend with like nothing to show for it because like even if i know i have to do something or i i know i want to work on something or like like same i just spin out on and doom scroll or doom watch sopranos all day yeah

47:51.52
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

48:00.19
Sean
Do you like one thing? so okay, two things, two things. One thing that I've been using is a tool someone showed me called Lunatask, which is kind of interesting.

48:10.72
Sean
Check it out. It's like a to-do list, but also like it's like ah ah it's like supposed to be built, I think, for eight people with ADHD from what my friend was telling me.

48:23.20
Sean
And it has like like journaling and habit tracking and a bunch of these other other things to it. And the friend of mine is like a big privacy nut so it's all like end to end encrypted, which is cool.

48:34.25
Sean
uh one thing i think i realized is like giving things like numbers are helpful like hey gonna make a loom tutorial library for a client who just got and like we just moved to wetflow and then i don't do it for a while and then now i can do it because i wrote myself like here's the file i'm gonna make five looms so it's a little less vague going back to your blog like blog post thing like

49:04.32
Sean
you know If you set up a system to say, i'm going to get X number of posts out slash X number of videos done a day or... Yeah.

49:18.51
Andrew
Yeah. Getting more specific with goals. so

49:20.56
Sean
Mm-hmm.

49:21.44
Andrew
Yeah. Possibly.

49:22.44
Sean
Yeah.

49:23.17
Andrew
Again, I feel like, like this is cool. This, my, my first reaction was, I don't know if I need a new, if a tool is going to solve this for me.

49:28.76
Sean
Mm-hmm.

49:32.03
Andrew
There is some, some interesting stuff in here that like, I haven't seen other people do like track how you feel.

49:32.24
Sean
Fair.

49:38.21
Andrew
you know, I've tried a bunch of habit trackers with mixed success over the years. Uh,

49:43.71
Sean
For what it's worth, I don't use the... Uh...

49:45.05
Andrew
skeptical of the personal crm bullshit i just like i don't know if i believe in those but like

49:54.30
Sean
I use it for my one-on-ones with my team as a way to just track. Because, like, I have that. Like, I'm going to have meetings with them. But it doesn't help me, like, reach out to someone I haven't spoken to or something like that.

50:05.37
Andrew
yeah

50:06.22
Sean
I liked it because it has an Eisenhower matrix for every single task. So you can just say, like, you know, important, urgent, not important, not urgent, stuff like that.

50:15.88
Andrew
yeah Yeah, there's definitely some interesting tooling and stuff in here.

50:16.36
Sean
Yeah.

50:19.18
Andrew
i still feel, though, like...

50:23.08
Andrew
Yeah, like... Probably if if I'm going to make progress on some of these things, it's going to require some social pressure.

50:34.64
Sean
All right. So promise the, promise the listeners

50:39.70
Andrew
Yeah? Yeah, that's fair. that's That's actually not a bad idea. I

50:46.46
Sean
Yeah. Put it on wax.

50:48.84
Andrew
just... ah ah Right at this moment, I don't know what that would be.

50:56.63
Andrew
i will get two more Loom videos recorded for Metamonster and get my personal newsletters in out by the next...

51:05.93
Sean
What the two videos to be what are the two videos goingnna be about

51:09.90
Andrew
Just like, I want to do I want each one to be about testing a prompt in the, in the, like, with the chat agent in in the new chat UI.

51:21.02
Sean
and

51:25.15
Andrew
Yeah. And then I've got, it yeah, that blog post that's been sitting around collecting dust on just like validation process.

51:35.93
Sean
um

51:36.22
Andrew
So, cause I do, I just look at like, I know that there are other ways to find success. It's not all about like content creation, but as a bootstrapped founder, it does feel a little bit like if you don't have an enterprise sales background or like a, a,

52:00.02
Andrew
if you don't have an enterprise sales background or have like deep industry connections in a specific industry, then like being able to crank out content is feels like a pretty valuable skill or being able to crank out anything, code content, you whatever, but just being having, building up the muscle of like creating and publishing regularly.

52:13.96
Sean
I think so.

52:22.81
Andrew
Yeah.

52:23.73
Sean
think I mean, I think so. I think.

52:29.04
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think so. Like, it has high leverage, and I think ultimately you need traffic onto the site, so um content is just one the best ways to get there if you can be consistent about it.

52:43.12
Sean
Mm-hmm.

52:43.44
Andrew
and again it can be content it could be building an mcp server it could be building know you know going to networking events whatever it just but you've got to be publishing you've got to be putting something out into the universe on a consistent basis

52:56.80
Sean
Mm-hmm.

52:59.64
Sean
Yeah. Okay. Newsletter. Two videos.

53:04.28
Andrew
yep

53:05.86
Sean
Next Wednesday.

53:06.84
Andrew
Yeah.

53:07.96
Sean
Easy peasy.

53:09.28
Andrew
Easy peasy. Cool.

53:11.90
Sean
Yeah. Okay. Let me know if you need help with it.

53:13.98
Andrew
Sweet.

53:14.54
Sean
Yeah. we going

53:14.77
Andrew
Will do. Yeah, we can co-work if you want. Cool, man.

53:18.28
Sean
to co-work? Are we going to co-work? or read

53:22.08
Sean
are you going to cowork

53:23.52
Andrew
you want.

53:25.20
Sean
Okay. All right. I'll let you know if I if i need some PRD help with with the planning stuff.

53:29.42
Andrew
Okay. Cool.

53:31.78
Sean
I'd love for you to take a look at it anyway because I feel like he's got something to say. well In a good way. In a good way.

53:40.14
Andrew
Sometimes maybe I should shut up. Alright,

53:42.06
Sean
As long as you know. All right. Cool. I'll see you later.

53:46.20
Andrew
peace, dude.

53:46.94
Sean
Peace.