Fresh from a techno festival, Andrew's planning an escape to Lion's Head National Park in Canada while working through therapy insights about procrastination. 🏕️ Plus he's thinking about how to reposition MetaMonster away from tools that might be seen as cheap. Meanwhile Sean's juggling multiple client launches and working on mapping the security operations of a bank to help other people on the Miscreants team understand what it's like to work in a security org. Also: Ferrari shots, cognitive distortions, and landing new clients!

Links:

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:01.05
Andrew
not much got a got a new haircut went to a rave this weekend not really a rave the movement festival the like big techno festival that happens in detroit every year was this weekend so uh we last year went for the first time got a one day ticket one day is all my old man old man ass can handle so

00:04.76
Sean
Yeah, what's fresh? How was that? Who did you see?

00:14.70
Sean
Cool.

00:25.98
Sean
Are you a techno guy? Are you?

00:27.81
Andrew
No, not really. I like house better than techno, but Detroit is the birthplace of techno.

00:28.71
Sean
Oh, okay. Gotcha. I

00:34.22
Andrew
So yeah.

00:35.31
Sean
i didn't know that. And yeah also the birthplace of Eminem.

00:38.87
Andrew
And i'm a I'm a Detroit guy. So big Detroit guy.

00:40.85
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00:44.76
Andrew
Yeah, it was fun.

00:45.52
Sean
Yeah.

00:46.53
Andrew
I could not tell you who we saw. I have no fucking clue what any of their names were.

00:50.17
Sean
Okay.

00:51.79
Andrew
i was just there vibing and dancing.

00:54.88
Sean
Cool. you Did you partake like many techno folks tend to?

00:59.05
Andrew
Not this year. No.

01:00.38
Sean
I see. I see.

01:01.08
Andrew
Nah, we were just... I had... I, you know, sipped on a few seltzers. Had a...

01:06.13
Sean
Nice.

01:07.04
Andrew
Had a Ferrari shot before we left.

01:09.49
Sean
What is a Ferrari shot?

01:10.94
Andrew
A Ferrari shot is equal parts for Nett and Campari. For... Ari.

01:16.49
Sean
Cool. like

01:17.37
Andrew
Yeah. It's like...

01:20.58
Sean
Do you like Frenet?

01:20.71
Andrew
i feel... I don't know.

01:21.50
Sean
Are you a Frenet person?

01:24.71
Andrew
i

01:25.07
Sean
Oh. Interesting.

01:25.68
Andrew
I want to be a Furnette person. i love Amari. And my cocktail nerd friends generally like Furnette. And it's a Furnette shot is called a bartender's handshake because it's apparently a big like industry thing where you're like, you know, start, start your shift or something with a shot of Furnette.

01:35.35
Sean
Interesting.

01:42.16
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

01:46.36
Andrew
And so I feel like, like that just sounds so cool. Like a bartender's handshake. Like that sounds so cool. And like, I'm never going to be a real bartender, but I can at least learn to like for net.

01:57.22
Andrew
I like it better.

01:57.21
Sean
Oh,

01:59.49
Andrew
it it just, it can overpower things and tastes like toothpaste. So I like, I prefer it with other things. I really want to try the I found out the most popular cocktail in like Argentina is a for net and Coke.

02:17.32
Sean
oh interesting.

02:18.68
Andrew
So yeah, it sounds really weird.

02:18.85
Sean
Now want

02:21.05
Andrew
I want to try it.

02:22.31
Sean
yeah i hear uh i hear fernet was like popular in sf for a bit it's a big sf people drink yeah yeah i don't mind it it's not bad yeah i would like to try fernet and diet coke that feels yeah well fernet diet coke break with the the cigarette

02:26.88
Andrew
I can see that. It seems like a SF hipster thing.

02:39.81
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah.

02:44.25
Andrew
Kind of like a Calimocho. Have you ever heard of that?

02:48.67
Sean
No, no, you know more about cocktails than I do.

02:49.83
Andrew
Calimocho is like the... My friends in Spain told me it's like kind of a college kid drink, but it's red wine and Coke.

03:02.87
Sean
You know what's really good that people are going to think is this guy? Red wine and Sprite.

03:07.24
Andrew
Oh, yeah, yeah. They call that Tinto de Verano. Yeah.

03:09.90
Sean
Oh, no, none of my ideas are original.

03:11.03
Andrew
Yeah.

03:12.70
Sean
I see.

03:12.87
Andrew
Yeah, red wine and either like some sort of citrus soda.

03:13.06
Sean
Okay.

03:16.34
Andrew
So often it's like a sparkling lemonade or a Sprite or something like that.

03:17.18
Sean
Hmm.

03:21.28
Andrew
It's kind of like, you know, poor man's sangria. If you don't have like fruit and don't want to do a whole like put all the work into making a sangria, just have a Tinto de Verano.

03:25.45
Sean
Yeah.

03:32.24
Sean
Yeah. Nice.

03:34.34
Andrew
We drank a bunch of them on the Camino.

03:34.38
Sean
Cool. Speaking of the Camino, you're going on your next trip.

03:41.14
Andrew
yeah uh if i can get this fucking newsletter out then i will be leaving to go up to canada for a three-day backpacking trip with maddie at lion's head national park it looks beautiful it's like cliffs that are stick out it's a peninsula that sticks out into lake huron these like big cliffs and crystal clear water

03:50.95
Sean
Nice.

03:53.69
Sean
Cool. Cool, cool.

04:05.29
Andrew
But the high is like 55 and it's supposed to be cloudy and like maybe rain a little bit. So little nervous, but really excited to be getting on trail.

04:10.79
Sean
Okay.

04:16.66
Andrew
I am like having a little bit of tech overload and

04:21.55
Sean
Yeah, it was just i I was just saying to JJ other day that like Andrew's going to go on a trip any one of these days. like It's been a while. He hasn't hasn't left to to go touch grass in a minute.

04:34.22
Sean
Yeah.

04:35.01
Andrew
yeah i've been craving it i was gonna try while i was uh in between miscreants projects i was gonna just take off in the middle of the week one week but the weather just wasn't cooperating the trail i wanted to do the two times that i looked to like get ready to go it was gonna be rainy the whole time and i was like fuck that rainy and cold so

04:45.46
Sean
Nice.

04:54.89
Sean
Nice. Nice. Well, glad you glad you get to do it now.

05:00.01
Andrew
Yeah. One of my goals is five backpacking trips this year.

05:00.58
Sean
hope it's

05:03.05
Andrew
So this is number one and we'll see if I can get all five.

05:04.06
Sean
cool. OK.

05:09.80
Sean
Gotcha. OK, so expect to not see you in November, basically, or October.

05:13.70
Andrew
That would be great.

05:14.96
Sean
cool

05:16.56
Andrew
I really, i'm i'm already planning to do this trip to Peru with one of my friends next year. And then one of these days, i still want to do the AT, but that's like a huge, that's like a six month undertaking.

05:24.02
Sean
cool

05:32.15
Andrew
And then A shorter thing that I really want to do is the Colorado Trail, which is like same distance as the Camino, but through mountains. it's 500 miles.

05:42.94
Andrew
And it's supposed to be absolutely beautiful. So that one takes like a month. So I feel like it's possible that next year I'll disappear for like August or September. Yeah, probably not this fall.

05:57.85
Andrew
Probably going to stick to weekend warrior trips, but

06:03.19
Sean
Is the Colorado Trail one long walkable trail?

06:07.88
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

06:08.80
Sean
Oh, that's cool.

06:09.47
Andrew
Yeah.

06:10.18
Sean
Nice.

06:10.58
Andrew
Starts in Denver and goes, like, all the way across Colorado.

06:13.60
Sean
Cool. Cool, co cool, cool.

06:16.03
Andrew
Yeah. supposed to be fucking beautiful.

06:19.63
Sean
Well, speaking of newsletter and goals last week.

06:22.95
Andrew
Oh, fuck.

06:25.43
Sean
Oh, no, that was not to call you out.

06:25.66
Andrew
Damn it.

06:26.63
Sean
I just meant did you do your two videos at least.

06:28.54
Andrew
No.

06:29.20
Sean
Nice.

06:29.81
Andrew
Yes. Yes? I think so. Did I?

06:33.25
Sean
You did one.

06:33.65
Sean
I saw one on LinkedIn.

06:34.72
Andrew
damn it i I have another recorded and I was waiting to, I was going to post it tomorrow or I was going to post it yesterday and just got busy with interviews.

06:46.99
Andrew
So it is in the queue. the inner The newsletter is also like, I just need one more link and a description for that link. So i I will have it ready before I leave for my trip.

06:58.50
Andrew
I will have both out.

06:58.74
Sean
We'll give it to you. We'll give it to you.

07:01.31
Andrew
Yeah, by the time this is published, which you want to publish this podcast because I am going to be in the woods for the next three days.

07:08.38
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, I got it. No worries.

07:09.75
Andrew
Okay, cool.

07:10.44
Sean
Yeah.

07:11.13
Andrew
So by the time this is published, yes. Yes, I did.

07:14.61
Sean
Cool. Okay. Good stuff. So it kind of worked. Social accountability.

07:19.50
Andrew
Kind of worked.

07:21.01
Sean
and did you Did you feel the same?

07:21.15
Andrew
Yeah.

07:24.22
Sean
and feel like last week you were saying... You weren't like burned out, but just like very feeling unfocused. How was...

07:30.34
Andrew
It felt so good to just like get some shit out there.

07:34.08
Sean
Nice.

07:34.77
Andrew
Also, one of the LinkedIn videos that I put out is how I got my newest consulting client.

07:43.48
Sean
Cool. I didn't know that. I thought he was just...

07:44.91
Andrew
Yeah.

07:45.44
Sean
Yeah, I thought he just like a guy you knew. Yeah.

07:47.62
Andrew
He is. So one of my friends runs an AI startup in Charleston called Scout OS. Well, they're called Scout. ScoutOS.com is their domain. And so the founder of Scout saw my some of my MetaMonster videos that I was putting out and was like, hey, I really need help figuring out some like product and growth stuff.

08:08.41
Andrew
you want to come help out? And I was like, yeah, that sounds really rad.

08:10.15
Sean
Cool. Yeah. Nice. Mm-hmm.

08:12.01
Andrew
That sounds like the kind of work I've been wanting to do for a long time. Also, my current miscreants project is in a phase right now where we're just kind of jamming on stuff. And it's, yeah, so it it feels a lot more like the kind of work I want to do.

08:21.44
Sean
yeah

08:27.01
Andrew
So it's been really fun. So, yeah, and in general, just like putting shit out there as it often does, even if it is kind of cringy and painful to do, i feel much better once I've done it.

08:28.99
Sean
nice

08:40.55
Andrew
and

08:42.36
Sean
I feel like, yeah, before the podcast started, we were talking about sort of YouTube and how we were glad we had an editor to go publish things for us because it's a painful experience.

08:51.97
Andrew
Yeah.

08:56.34
Sean
But also funny enough, like, it's funny that the experience afterwards is not painful and, like, good feeling, but but like you just forget that feeling immediately after you have to do the next one.

09:07.18
Andrew
yeah

09:13.29
Andrew
By the way, i was talking about some of this in therapy the other day, yesterday.

09:13.75
Sean
Mm-hmm.

09:18.47
Andrew
And I swear I must have talked about this before. But my therapist is like, this doesn't sound good. We need to unpack this. And he was like, just the the feeling of like cringing at promoting myself and like not liking when people ask me what I do. or It actually started with the podcast.

09:35.88
Sean
yeah

09:37.20
Andrew
I was telling him how I like... hate admitting that I have a podcast

09:41.81
Sean
Oh, me So what's the, if you don't mind sharing, what's, what came out of that?

09:43.90
Andrew
and he was like that doesn't seem good I think we should probably there's something to work on there

09:55.45
Andrew
We haven't we haven't resolved anything yet. We just talked about it for a while. And my homework right now is like to pay attention to every time that I want to procrastinate and just write down why.

10:07.59
Andrew
Like write down the story that's in my head about why I don't want to do the thing that I'm putting off.

10:07.76
Sean
know

10:15.07
Sean
Interesting.

10:15.28
Andrew
And then the next thing he's going to make me do is go through all of the stories and like challenge them.

10:19.56
Sean
Okay. I see. Interesting. Interesting.

10:22.78
Andrew
Yeah.

10:23.37
Sean
Okay.

10:23.67
Andrew
So, yeah, it's it's been super helpful for, like, relationship stuff for me and just general life stuff.

10:24.03
Sean
try that too. Interesting.

10:30.78
Andrew
If there are things that I'm consistently, like, unhappy with or feeling, like, critical of, negative about. writing down the stories and one, being able to label them and think of them as stories.

10:43.85
Andrew
This is a big therapy technique is labeling.

10:43.95
Sean
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

10:46.24
Andrew
Just like anytime you can notice your emotions and label them, it like takes a lot of the punch out of them.

10:46.42
Sean
yeah

10:52.01
Andrew
It makes them feel less intense and it gives you like kind of this like mental distance from them can be really helpful. And so labeling the stories and then running through each of them and asking for everyone Is this accurate?

11:07.65
Andrew
Is this helpful? Just those two questions. And if not, if you say no to either of those, then what is the story that is accurate and helpful in this situation?

11:20.59
Andrew
And i mean, it is it's takes time and it takes work, but it is incredibly powerful for just like changing your mindset about things.

11:31.22
Sean
Cool.

11:33.61
Sean
Okay, I'm gonna give it a shot as well, I'll let you know.

11:37.13
Andrew
Yeah.

11:38.57
Sean
the The like, it's technique of like, conflict management slash communication that I learned that's similar is ah ah but ah one thing that I learned to do is like, I'll say like, my story of you is XYZ. It doesn't have to be necessarily for a confrontation, but often it's useful in that context because because like you know i think i think in the same way it takes the punch out of an accusation versus like here's my understanding and it's open to be incredibly wrong because it's a story yeah yeah

12:02.72
Andrew
yeah

12:14.55
Andrew
Yeah. Here's the story I have in my head about you or about the situation. do you agree with that? If not, why not? Cool.

12:21.21
Sean
yeah yeah

12:21.34
Andrew
Let's challenge that. And then also it the same vein, like just anytime you are arguing with someone, like repeating back what they said to them and being like, this is what I heard.

12:34.30
Sean
Right. Yeah.

12:34.81
Andrew
This is what I heard you say. And like, sometimes it's, it's like, or you even know that that's not what they said. But like, when you said that in my head, it meant this.

12:46.64
Sean
right

12:46.72
Andrew
And like, when you start having those conversations, it can be so helpful for getting at what are, the root problems, and like are there cognitive distortions at play here that are causing, creating a lot of tension where there doesn't need to be?

12:57.36
Sean
yeah

13:01.30
Sean
Yeah, yeah. Nice, nice, nice. Okay, that's yeah that's interesting. And I've never labeled it as like a cognitive distortion. I've labeled labeled it as like a abstraction or like a shorthand.

13:12.48
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

13:13.37
Sean
But in a product marketing sense, like one thing that in some workshops with execs or people that report up to execs that I'll run them through is like, like,

13:25.01
Sean
I think as I've kind of grown in my professional career, like always kind felt that was bullshit, right? Because like saying something like our goal innovation like really kind bullshit term.

13:35.98
Sean
grownan in my professional career like i always kind of felt that was bullshit right because because like saying something like our goal is innovation is like a really kind of bullshit term What I've learned is when they say the word innovation and I think about the word innovation, it means fundamentally to two different things.

13:53.45
Sean
For them, it's shorthand for like a pair, like, sorry, an essay of other things they want to do that they're now, like, it's just like a shorthand between them.

13:53.53
Andrew
yeah

14:03.48
Sean
but It means nothing.

14:03.54
Andrew
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

14:04.12
Sean
And I think, yeah, I think. ah ah Anyway, the the product marketing exercise is to unwrap what the hell you meant by like modern or innovation. Because like that doesn't mean shit on a new on a website, for example.

14:17.48
Sean
So that's cool.

14:18.37
Andrew
Yeah, and to be fair, when I say cognitive distortion, I wouldn't label anything like that a cognitive distortion. There are like, documented and studied, I assume, cognitive distortions that we all find ourselves falling victim to all the time.

14:29.59
Sean
I see.

14:34.44
Andrew
You know, Black or white thinking is one where you're like, everything is binary, it has to be this or this. And in reality, almost everything's a spectrum.

14:40.84
Sean
Right.

14:42.48
Andrew
Like, fortune telling where you're like, you're and this is it gets a little meta like fortune telling is like predicting the future when

14:51.87
Sean
right

14:52.73
Andrew
you don't actually know what's going to happen. Mind reading is like when you're assuming you know what the other person is thinking. that's often where you can use that like, what I heard you say was, or what I think you're thinking is this. and And then just like, they can be like, no, that's not what I'm thinking at all.

15:09.23
Andrew
And so these are cognitive distortions.

15:09.26
Sean
am

15:11.33
Andrew
And so what I meant is like sometimes in conflict, in an argument, there's a cognitive distortion at work that by labeling your thoughts and repeating them to each other, you can help each other identify those and be like, no, no, no, no.

15:25.25
Andrew
no that's like That's not what's happening here.

15:26.01
Sean
Right. Cool.

15:30.00
Sean
Okay, cool.

15:30.06
Andrew
Yeah.

15:30.40
Sean
I'm looking at the list.

15:30.56
Andrew
Cognitive distortions are a really helpful tool. like Once you learn to recognize them, mean, they come up all the time.

15:33.02
Sean
Yeah.

15:37.74
Sean
Yeah.

15:37.77
Andrew
And we all have certain distortions that we lean on more than others. like I fall victim to like the all or nothing or black or white thinking all the time.

15:42.56
Sean
For sure.

15:46.86
Sean
Mm-mm-mm. Nice. Makes sense. Okay, cool. New rabbit hole to go down. I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole. This is not even related to to the usual stuff we talk about, but

15:58.94
Andrew
Hell yeah, hit me it.

16:00.75
Sean
ah there's a common misconceptions page on Wikipedia that is incredibly long.

16:07.56
Andrew
That sounds really fun.

16:08.94
Sean
Amazing Wikipedia page. Some of these kind of blew my mind.

16:12.04
Andrew
That sounds super fun.

16:15.35
Sean
Not that I remember any of them, but yeah, absolutely.

16:19.19
Andrew
I'm pulling this up right now.

16:21.11
Sean
oh oh okay. my One of my favorite ones. Have you heard this you heard this like ah marketing case study story about how Coke invented the image of Santa being in a red suit and being jolly and and holding it in order to sell more Coke?

16:37.16
Andrew
I never heard that, but that sounds hilarious and sounds plausible.

16:39.45
Sean
Okay. Yeah, semi-common thing that people talk about. Completely BS. The common image of Santa Claus as a large jolly man in red garments was not created by the Coca-Cola company as an advertising tool.

16:55.74
Sean
It was already something that had been created by American popular culture in the late 19th century, and then Coke used it in the nineteen thirty s

17:03.22
Andrew
Yeah, I think I could have told you that.

17:04.26
Sean
so

17:05.43
Andrew
Saint Nicholas was like a real figure who like is common in like the Christian church. And there's like all these Saint Nicholas Day traditions that like sort of predated a lot of the like Santa Claus traditions.

17:18.24
Sean
fair.

17:20.58
Andrew
That's cool. Yeah, some of these are great.

17:25.19
Andrew
This is a funny one. Michelangelo was standing, not lying down while painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

17:30.31
Sean
Common story.

17:31.51
Andrew
How the fuck do you know?

17:31.56
Sean
hu

17:32.21
Andrew
you weren't there, Wikipedia.

17:34.45
Sean
That's true.

17:36.20
Andrew
letters AR and AR-15 stand for Armalite Rifle. Reflecting the company Armalite, they do not stand for a Assault Rifle.

17:41.57
Sean
Yep. Yep. Yep. Kind of blows your mind, huh? oh Oh, 420 did not originate from the LA police or as a penal code for marijuana use.

17:53.74
Andrew
Hmm.

17:54.25
Sean
The California penal code 420 just prohibits the obstruction of access to public land. 420 was started in 1971 at the San Rafael High School when a group of students would just go smoke at 420. Uh-huh.

18:04.93
Andrew
Dude, I'm going to read this whole page and then I'm going to be even more insufferable than I already am because every time one of these comes up, I'm going to be like, well, actually,

18:09.88
Sean
hu

18:13.04
Sean
Yeah, 100%.

18:16.55
Andrew
should not have shown me this. This is bad. This is bad, bad.

18:20.55
Sean
i I apologize for nothing.

18:25.20
Sean
I don't feel a smidgen of bad for anyone who has to get there.

18:30.53
Andrew
right, I think this is going in the newsletter.

18:30.92
Sean
Okay.

18:32.33
Andrew
I got to replace. I'll replace my mocktail recipe with this, or maybe the mapping NBA player positions.

18:40.32
Sean
Okay, boom, done. Newsletters finished.

18:44.21
Andrew
Sweet.

18:46.02
Sean
how's How's Metamot, sir?

18:48.24
Andrew
MinuteMonster's good. i just got off a call earlier today with friend Sam Insilaco, who runs an SEO agency in Buffalo, New York.

18:58.84
Sean
Cool.

18:59.30
Andrew
Really helpful conversation. Also had this great conversation with my friend Nigel, who runs a really awesome SEO agency. And I was talking to Nigel like about how he uses Aerox and how he sees the the market And he and Sam kind of reaffirmed what I've been feeling, which is like site audit tools are kind of seen as cheap or like table stakes like they're, you know, and so i I think I want to position this.

19:27.55
Sean
Sure.

19:31.55
Andrew
I want to move away from like the screaming frog positioning. I may still use it like ah you know an attention grabber, but i I think I want to try to move away from that because I think it associates people.

19:45.20
Andrew
It gets people to associate us with something that they see as cheap. I'm also just hearing a lot of like tool fatigue from from SEOs. I mean, this is something everyone's been feeling for a long time.

19:53.30
Sean
sure

19:55.96
Andrew
And so Sam kind of confirmed and, you know, i I didn't do a super formal user interview, so I should do some more of these and like be a little bit more critical about how i ask the questions. But initially confirmed the feeling that I've been having of like, we need to provide value at multiple steps in the process in order to be, to be worth the cost of like, not just the dollars and like, you know, agency owners are often tired of spending more money, on, on tools.

20:17.31
Sean
Yeah. Cool.

20:30.55
Andrew
So not just the dollars, but also like the just the setup and integration costs, just like the the mental burden of getting a new tool up and running and figuring out how it fits into your workflow and everything.

20:44.74
Sean
cool

20:45.78
Andrew
Also heard from him that he's really trying to eliminate tools that have like a lot of overlap to the point that he's like, I may stop paying for Screaming Frog and just use Ahrefs site audit.

20:56.15
Andrew
So that was really interesting to hear. So like you we both need to provide value multiple steps in the process. And we need to have a really compelling differentiator for, like, why do you get something here that you don't get anywhere else?

21:09.69
Andrew
is, as I'm saying, it sounds like, duh, like that's table stakes. But still feels feels useful.

21:18.10
Sean
i think well i think I think it has the implication of like what to focus on, right? The difference between like trying to reach parity versus uniqueness is the biggest difference.

21:28.41
Andrew
Yeah.

21:31.78
Sean
And I think of...

21:31.96
Andrew
Yeah. I think that's absolutely right.

21:33.50
Sean
Yeah.

21:34.77
Andrew
Yeah. and And I think it's it can be how we frame it. Like, it might be and that, like, we have some feature overlap, but, like, the so we still have to be able to frame it as we're presenting something you can't get elsewhere.

21:49.20
Andrew
Yeah.

21:49.64
Sean
Yeah.

21:49.77
Andrew
Not like we have the features you have elsewhere and a couple of other features, but like somehow the combination of those features is something you can't get elsewhere.

21:49.84
Sean
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

21:58.97
Sean
yeah

21:59.70
Sean
yeah

22:00.32
Andrew
Yeah.

22:00.54
Sean
nice

22:01.63
Andrew
The other thing that was really interesting talking to Nigel, and I think you said this to me too, I was talking about like ClearScope and Surfer SEO.

22:13.08
Andrew
So let me back up first. I started the conversation. Nigel and his company have been onboarding with Aerox, which is like, if listeners don't know, is like one of the ah ah SEO products out there that is most similar to the way we are currently building Metamonster.

22:29.90
Andrew
Yeah.

22:30.32
Sean
Yeah, they call themselves a complete content orchestrate orchestration system, specifically being like an AI native tool to orchestrate and said content.

22:34.83
Andrew
Yeah.

22:40.65
Andrew
Yep. And they have a grid-based like UI plus a workflow builder.

22:41.48
Sean
Yeah.

22:46.62
Sean
Hmm.

22:47.75
Andrew
I think I've said it before. like They're really expensive. They're sales-led. And they're like really complicated to set up.

22:55.39
Sean
Hmm.

22:56.44
Andrew
When I sent out the newsletter to our... mailing list last week with like the video about where we're going someone responded and was like if you could be an affordable air ops that's like easy for a normal human to use then i think you might be on to something and that's one of the signals that like you want to take it with a grain of salt like i think you might be on something is not a credit card yeah yeah yeah

23:14.19
Sean
Cool.

23:19.88
Sean
Yeah, that doesn't pass the mom test in any way. Yeah, that is. I didn't realize your newsletter folks responded to you. That's cool.

23:28.65
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, I got a couple of, i got three responses from from the waiting list. This is like the Metamonster list, not not my personal newsletter.

23:37.06
Sean
Gotcha.

23:39.39
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was rad.

23:37.98
Sean
Still cool, but yeah.

23:41.69
Andrew
And so so that was interesting. um that's Aerops. And so i was talking to my friend Nigel about how he's using Aerops. And the thing that I found really interesting is like, we've been coming at this from like an optimization perspective, largely of like, take content, optimize content.

23:58.31
Andrew
or or like or generation, like crank out a bunch of content that's like sort of optimized.

24:03.93
Sean
Hmm.

24:08.16
Andrew
And he's looking at the value of Aerofs really as like higher level than that, like kind of the thinking or strategy piece, which is so interesting to me. like The workflow that they're trying to set up and they don't have it working well enough yet that they're satisfied.

24:28.47
Andrew
And I don't think this is everyone. I think a lot of people are using air ops to just like crank out content at scale. But the way that they're trying to use it is they can upload a list of like pages or topics that they want to rank for.

24:43.24
Andrew
They'll, it'll go out and do SERP analysis and like pull the content from those pages and be like, okay, here's the things like create an outline of like what you need to cover.

24:56.04
Andrew
And then it'll cross-reference the, like the knowledge bases, like the company knowledge bases of their clients and use those to be like, here's the unique angle we can bring.

25:10.00
Andrew
And the way he put it is like,

25:10.13
Sean
Cool.

25:13.37
Andrew
is like you know yes this is stuff that traditionally a human has had to do but if you have enough content a human can't keep it all in their heads but like vector search is perfect for finding the things that are relevant and and you know and then using ai to like summarize them and analyze them

25:34.27
Sean
cool

25:34.29
Andrew
And so, yeah, that was super interesting to me is that he's really using it for more of that strategic, like, how do we rank for these things piece?

25:44.65
Sean
Cool.

25:46.28
Andrew
And then my friend Sam that I was talking to is doing a very similar thing manually, like one-off in chat GPT, where it's like, when he gets stuck, he's like, okay, we've done all the low-hanging fruit, what else? like...

25:57.40
Andrew
or like sometimes he'll be like, here's the best page on a site. how do we beat them? and do stuff like that. And so he's kind of using it as like a second brain.

26:08.53
Sean
cool

26:08.60
Andrew
And so it sounds like people are trusting the AI almost more with the, the like analysis than, and like the strategy using it more for the strategy than for like some of the like grunt work, which is really interesting and surprising to me.

26:19.12
Sean
Yeah.

26:26.57
Andrew
It's also kind of like what Surfer SEO and ClearScope have traditionally been used for. And, you know, to Nigel's point, he's like, the SERP analysis stuff is kind of table stakes.

26:39.95
Andrew
He's like, k ClearScope can do that already. Like, that's not that's not that interesting to me.

26:42.54
Sean
yeah

26:45.10
Andrew
He's like, people have been using ClearScope to just like copy the best content out there. The interesting thing to me is being able to like analyze our

26:49.13
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

26:53.90
Andrew
our data and present our unique opportunities.

27:00.69
Sean
make sense i mean i think i think that's cool does that do you feel like so you know i think in a a belief you approached metamonster with was that ai should go do the grunt work not the like strategy or high level thinking and whatnot do you feel like this changes things for you okay

27:23.44
Andrew
Possibly. And the compelling part to me is not like, I still don't see it as replacing the human and in the process there.

27:34.34
Andrew
It's not like saying the human's not going to do any strategy anymore.

27:38.69
Sean
Mm-hmm.

27:38.78
Andrew
It's like when the human is stuck and like your brain is fried because you're on your 10th client call and you're just like, I can't even.

27:38.83
Sean
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

27:47.40
Andrew
Help me get unstuck. When I've, like, kind of run out of ideas, what am I not thinking? Give me another perspective. when there's When I have too much data to be able to keep it all in my head and accurately remember, like, recall, like, okay, for this thing, we have this thing over here that would be really compelling.

28:06.53
Andrew
Like, it's it's augmenting humans still, which has been which is really the core of that hypothesis is, like,

28:11.24
Sean
Yeah.

28:14.00
Andrew
augment humans don't like don't don't replace the interesting work but it's like it's not replacing the interesting work it's making it it's helping you when you hit your limits

28:19.41
Sean
yeah

28:25.84
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think there's, ah ah you know, like, I think there's still grunt work when it comes to developing strategy, ingestion being one of the main ones.

28:34.77
Andrew
yeah

28:37.11
Sean
And I think, you know, if I have, like, I mean, I do this Claude, you know, throw a bunch of shit.

28:42.39
Andrew
Ingestion and summarization. Summarization is a big one.

28:44.19
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I throw a bunch of things at it and I never expected to give me the right answer, but I expected to give me the answer that gets me to the right answer because it's just that, you know, there, I have blind spots and it's good at finding those and offering different ideas.

28:53.50
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

29:02.80
Sean
So yeah. Cool.

29:04.47
Andrew
Yeah.

29:05.27
Sean
Cool.

29:05.45
Andrew
So I think like we're still going to generate page titles and meta descriptions and alt text and like all those things. But i I'm trying to figure out what else do we do that is like really unique and compelling. And like you know this is like one idea.

29:23.69
Andrew
and got to figure out how to do it well. but And we may not be able to do it in the first version of this thing. But I think over time, we can build tools that make it possible.

29:35.59
Sean
Cool. Cool, cool.

29:37.89
Andrew
Yeah.

29:37.97
Sean
Oh, so I saw the new demo for Metamonster, the enrich tab.

29:43.19
Andrew
I am blown away by how fast ah ah we're seeing that come together. And like, it feels so much more compelling already.

29:48.19
Sean
Mm-hmm.

29:50.78
Andrew
It's like so far from being production ready, but it is so compelling.

29:56.20
Sean
yeah

29:56.92
Andrew
i just got to figure out how to talk about it and how to like communicate the value.

30:04.29
Sean
Cool. Very cool.

30:06.16
Andrew
Yeah.

30:06.80
Sean
Cool.

30:06.97
Andrew
What's going on with you?

30:07.04
Sean
Exciting stuff. This week has been crazy. been in Back of the Backs as well. this This is my one reprieve before I get it back into it.

30:16.82
Sean
Yeah. I think because Monday, i mean, Monday was great. Monday, we didn't have any meetings, but Tuesday and Wednesday, basically all those meetings and whatnot got shifted into these two days and Thursday and Friday.

30:32.33
Sean
So that, so four work four day work weeks do not work for us or me at the moment.

30:33.18
Andrew
Damn, yeah.

30:40.92
Sean
Monday was good. It was nice to, it was nice to just have time to like work on different things. Black Hat is only couple months away, so a lot of that work.

30:53.58
Sean
have a client site launching today, sorry, we have a client site launching on Friday. have another client site that's supposed to launch on Friday, but I don't think we're gonna get some assets and product screenshots from them in time. And we have another client site launching next week, so it's been a mad rush to get those done.

31:09.84
Sean
And then we have another sprint into Black Hat to get those things done. so that's fun and exciting we're officially actually starting merch oh so next week and hopefully going to get that all done and ordered in time what else uh been started using linear for margins

31:28.63
Andrew
Yeah.

31:33.72
Andrew
yeah Yeah, you mentioned that last time.

31:34.62
Sean
Yeah.

31:35.45
Andrew
How's that going?

31:35.71
Sean
Okay. Good, good, getting good, good. I had a lot. I got really, really stuck with looking. i still i should I'll run it by you post when you come back.

31:46.15
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

31:46.98
Sean
broke it out like like I broke it down into phases and I couldn't get into the weeds of like breaking it down into actual like developer tasks versus just like, you know, I know that phase one should be this. I know that phase two should be that.

32:01.07
Sean
it's good to just have my friend Claude think through some of it for me and pull, you know, whatever things out of it.

32:09.14
Andrew
Yeah.

32:10.18
Sean
was good to kind of get unstuck there.

32:12.77
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

32:13.04
Sean
i mean, it's going. and Dustin, our dev, is killing it. He just showed me the new like code embed tool. and I don't know if he came up with it or Cursor helped come up with it, but I think like in in like like there are some there are some features I didn't even think about that are like new quality of life improvements. So for example,

32:35.80
Sean
In Webflow, you add a code embed and you add a bunch of code embeds into ah custom code blocks. ah not not like not They're injected HTML and CSS, not code blocks as in syntax highlighted text blocks.

32:50.76
Sean
And in Webflow, there's just one gray box that you can't see into. So in margins, we're going give you the ability to name said code blocks because... now you can now you know what it does, for example.

33:01.42
Andrew
Nice.

33:02.40
Sean
also have it like loaded in an iframe so you can actually see the thing. makes the experience a lot better. So, yeah.

33:09.21
Andrew
Yeah, that's a big improvement.

33:11.81
Sean
So there's these little tiny micro features or micro like improvements that I haven't It was a good, I guess, but like, I don't know this is cognitive distortion or, like, a logical fallacy, right? But I think, like, like I write the PRD or i I, like, build a wireframe and I think, like, that's that's it.

33:30.27
Sean
That's perfect. There's no other ways to make this better. it's a good, like, brief breaking of my frame to go, like, oh, there's so many other things that I've just have learned to take for granted that are, like, could be ah ah ah way better experience.

33:42.41
Andrew
Yeah.

33:44.59
Sean
So.

33:45.15
Andrew
I guess that's why they say like the beginner mindset is so helpful, because you just you don't have the preconceptions of like this is how things have always been done, and this is how they have to be done in the future.

33:50.57
Sean
Yeah.

33:55.84
Sean
Yeah. Or talking to customers, you know, not something I have was just reminded of that I should be doing more of that I have not been doing.

34:03.63
Andrew
Hell yeah.

34:05.74
Sean
Both by you and by a friend who's building like a Figma, like an AI Figma competitor.

34:10.73
Andrew
Whoa, that's a big project.

34:12.79
Sean
It is a big project. It is big project.

34:14.24
Andrew
No thank you.

34:15.27
Sean
yeah i ah He showed me and I was like, I don't know if this beats Figma, but there's a really cool part of it that's cool. Anyway, it was a good reminder that I should probably call up more people and and show them and talk to them about it.

34:31.05
Andrew
Yeah.

34:34.27
Sean
That's

34:34.34
Andrew
I think I might pay for another round of user interviews. a

34:37.81
Sean
cool.

34:38.64
Andrew
I just found a new site. One of the people I was interviewing for Miscreants told me about respondent.io, which looks like it might be slightly cheaper than userinterviews.com.

34:46.07
Sean
Okay.

34:51.52
Sean
Okay.

34:51.62
Andrew
And so might give them a try for, yeah I might give give them a try.

34:59.61
Sean
I will also give this a try.

35:02.08
Andrew
Cool.

35:02.71
Sean
Yeah.

35:03.15
Andrew
Do it.

35:04.96
Sean
Nice. Cool. Yeah.

35:09.18
Sean
I guess I forgot these things existed. Because my brain, I don't...

35:11.24
Andrew
Yeah, they're really fucking useful. 100%.

35:12.99
Sean
Yeah, I really don't want to like talk to you about the product as you are a buyer because I think you have too much context into what it is we're working on.

35:22.52
Andrew
hundred percent

35:23.85
Sean
the same with like our clients that are slash, you know, whatever friend. I think having a total stranger sort of like look at it and rip it apart, I think is good.

35:34.78
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah.

35:35.23
Sean
Also, I can't trust the opinions of my friends. you know i

35:38.60
Andrew
yeah

35:39.23
Sean
like They told me never to build Storylane product before Storylane existed. And they told me never to build an Arrows product before Arrows existed. And both of which have gotten to become very useful tools. So, yeah. Mm-hmm.

35:57.70
Andrew
The thing that I really want to do and the blog post that I just published about like my updated MetaMonster validation process, I talked about how I used userinterviews.com to like schedule interviews and everything.

35:57.94
Sean
what

36:10.59
Andrew
And one of the things I said I wanted to do differently was like just really dive deeper on workflows and talk to people even more about like walk me through like

36:11.29
Sean
Cool. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

36:24.28
Andrew
how a client project goes from start to finish and like get all the details and like, how often are you onboarding new clients in a month and how often are you doing each step in this process in a month?

36:35.65
Andrew
And like, you know, just figure out really what it looks like. So dive deeper into workflows, and, and then deeper into like buying process, you know, how does a new tool get discovered and bought at your company?

36:49.27
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

36:54.56
Andrew
And figuring that out. Like, I think, I think we need to have a more generous free trial in part because i think a lot of practitioners at agencies don't have authority to buy new products. And so they can't put a credit card in to test a new product.

37:12.34
Andrew
without going to their boss. And their boss will often say no because their boss has different priorities.

37:17.99
Sean
Right.

37:17.99
Andrew
And so I want to make it easier for people to try out Metamonster once we have something more compelling to show them.

37:25.03
Sean
Nice.

37:25.19
Andrew
And like i I don't want to go full freemium, just like give have a generous free trial that can get them to the point of like this thing is really cool and will really make my life better.

37:40.03
Sean
Cool.

37:41.08
Andrew
And like then they are armed to go back to their boss with examples.

37:45.59
Sean
Right, right, right.

37:49.62
Andrew
So yeah, we should both talk to users more.

37:52.30
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. More all the story. More. Who knew that was good advice? Who would have guessed? Yeah.

37:59.74
Andrew
It's almost like the most common piece of advice that everyone in the startup world who has been around the block will like beat you over the head with over and over and over again.

38:08.59
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, their their advice doesn't count. You got to learn it for yourself. um Yeah, otherwise, thing I did spend some of my Monday doing.

38:22.16
Sean
So this this was inspired also in part by the new client we onboarded that you're working on. Basically, I just started like breaking down in FigJam layers. So like like, this is a bank. This is a, you know, like like a large enough bank.

38:40.63
Sean
Here's all the data in that they need to protect. Here's the external threats that exist.

38:44.30
Andrew
Ooh, nice.

38:44.84
Sean
And here's every single layer inside their org and all the orgs that managed every single layer. And, you know, like, here's, like, here's the things that push data into the sim.

38:58.39
Sean
Here's things, like, that get pulled out of different threat intel feeds. Here's, like, ah basically, it's, like, a market map, except operationalized into the existence of, like, a company.

39:06.22
Andrew
Yeah.

39:10.01
Andrew
Yeah.

39:11.17
Sean
And we're contextualizing it.

39:11.35
Andrew
Dude, that would have been so fucking useful when I was at GrayNoise or even before. Like, that would be so... I still want to see that. Like, I can't wait to see that. and

39:19.69
Sean
i will I will show it to you. Mainly because our our mutual, our client, is building a thing that isn't necessarily like a total replacement. It's kind of like Yeah.

39:28.03
Andrew
Yeah. Well, and they're still trying to figure out what product category it fits into and, like, how to position it and talk about it.

39:32.42
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I think the problem is that like, well, I think like one of the things, like when we when I explain what a tool, what a type of tool does to our team, I'm explaining it in the vacuum of what that tool does, not in the context of like where it sits in the stack.

39:51.34
Andrew
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

39:55.03
Sean
of security tools that a company that large would buy um but yeah it is a process and it's like yeah mermaid diagrams are not great at doing that so I actually don't think there's any tool besides like a fig jam type of like Miro or Lucidchart where you actually draw out the thing that can do it to the fidelity that I want.

40:23.31
Sean
Yeah, I'm like 20%, maybe barely even 20% in at this point, just because they're

40:28.84
Andrew
And you're starting with a bank, and then you'll do like other types of works.

40:31.24
Sean
because there's... it was a little ambitious to like... target the the, you know, the largest type of clients that our clients have. Um, but I also felt like it would actually, it felt like doing that would be easier later on because I can just cut different things out for like a smaller SaaS company or whatever.

40:42.63
Andrew
Yeah.

40:50.47
Sean
But,

40:51.49
Andrew
The quick and dirty version of this, same client in their product strategy doc, they just have a screenshot from like Claude or perplexity or something that's just like, hey, describe like midsize, an enterprise and a, like the, describe the structure of a security team at like a midsize company, an enterprise company and like, no, one other, i forget.

41:00.29
Sean
Hmm.

41:14.35
Andrew
And it's just like, here are the roles. Here's what those roles do for like midsize for enterprise. And it was really helpful to look at. It's just like always good to refresh and go like, okay, right.

41:23.80
Sean
Yeah.

41:25.01
Andrew
Yeah. They're, you know, they call this, this thing doesn't exist until this size. And then like, um yeah.

41:33.24
Andrew
And I mean, obviously it all is like generalized there.

41:33.55
Sean
Yeah.

41:36.56
Andrew
It'll be different from to org, but

41:38.24
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

41:39.87
Andrew
Even just having like a mental map to go off of, even if it's faulty, is so helpful.

41:45.98
Sean
yeah 100% yeah I'm trying to get it to be the fidelity of like this team here's the workflows because I think you and I both listen but you listen to that podcast about messaging and stuff and i think workflow segmentation is great for product like building messaging and I realize that like there's no way that anyone else on the team can can do it not having experienced like a modicum of it but

41:59.22
Andrew
Yeah.

42:02.08
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

42:11.41
Andrew
you give them access to users, they could give them access to data sources.

42:13.99
Sean
That's true. That's true. That's fair. Yeah, that's true.

42:19.82
Andrew
Yeah, but

42:22.17
Sean
Anyway, that's been my side project.

42:24.20
Andrew
sick. Can't wait see it.

42:25.46
Sean
my bri My brain hurts from doing it. its

42:29.15
Andrew
Yeah, that's good.

42:30.21
Sean
I feel like a CISO, except not with on a CISO salary for what it's worth.

42:34.90
Andrew
Yeah. Any chance you can just convince Mike to do the next 10 and like publish them on Return on Security?

42:40.02
Sean
Oh, that's what that's what i I just asked a friend. i just asked a VC, so I'm like, if you do this, I'll just pay you make them. yeah Yeah. I'll ask Mike next.

42:53.30
Sean
We'll see. He has enough things going on. He's got, yeah, I asked him to do a, if he wanted to do a research report, like for one of our clients, because they were going to pay a not insignificant amount of money for it.

42:56.67
Andrew
yeah

43:08.53
Sean
He's busy. He's too busy being successful, running his newsletter. You know, he's got got shit going on.

43:11.61
Andrew
hell yeah

43:13.29
Sean
He's VC now. He's all that stuff.

43:15.100
Andrew
Love it.

43:17.24
Andrew
I didn't know he was investing.

43:19.63
Sean
Yeah, yeah. I think he's doing Angel Plus is semi in part of I don't think he's like an official like GP at this UK VC company, but I think he's heavily involved in it as like an advisor or something, but

43:37.23
Andrew
That's cool. that That seems like a good fit for him.

43:37.100
Sean
and yeah, I agree.

43:40.98
Andrew
Cool.

43:41.22
Sean
I agree.

43:43.65
Andrew
I want to... Let's let's like keep this rolling. like I want to I think I want to commit to two more videos. No.

43:52.74
Andrew
Next recording... i'm I'm out half of this week. So let's just do... I'm going to say one more video. And...

44:03.24
Andrew
I want to say... like a at least a prototype of like a free tool.

44:09.73
Sean
Okay.

44:10.61
Andrew
But that feels a little ambitious without a full week and with like two client projects starting up.

44:18.13
Sean
Yeah.

44:18.28
Andrew
So let's let's just say one video and...

44:25.02
Andrew
Fuck it, yeah. Let's just say one video for now.

44:27.26
Sean
cool

44:27.100
Andrew
Yeah, I'm going to have another video out.

44:28.13
Sean
Cool. I feel like we're... Cool, i will I will go do at least one session with the respondent, assuming I can just pay for a one-off sessions. Well, it's almost like...

44:38.71
Andrew
I mean, you said you should do at least like five or something. not not You don't have to do five by Wednesday, but you should, if if you're going to pay for them, just go ahead.

44:43.77
Sean
but then Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

44:48.25
Andrew
If you're doing all the work to set up a project, just like have schedule five at some point.

44:55.77
Sean
Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair.

44:57.39
Andrew
Yeah.

44:58.16
Sean
Sure, I can, yeah.

44:59.77
Andrew
But yeah, try to to have one done by Wednesday. It's great.

45:02.81
Sean
Yeah. It's almost like we're finally doing the thing that our podcast is called.

45:08.40
Andrew
Yeah, we got yeah write this shit down and like hold each other accountable.

45:13.91
Sean
Yeah, just put in the show notes.

45:15.74
Andrew
Yeah, I'm putting it in. That's a good idea. I'm going to put it in Slack for now.

45:19.82
Sean
Nice.

45:21.35
Andrew
OK, Andrew is

45:21.39
Sean
Nice.

45:24.89
Andrew
publishing one more demo video. Sean is scheduling one user interview.

45:36.30
Sean
Nice. 80 bucks.

45:40.67
Andrew
Sick.

45:41.47
Sean
Yeah.

45:42.60
Andrew
Love it.

45:43.51
Sean
Cool. I'm going to do one. but I just looked at the pricing. you got do You either buy one or you buy 60.

45:52.05
Andrew
Wait, what?

45:53.32
Sean
Yeah. yeah it's You can buy a credit bundle, which gives you 60 research sessions, but it's 72 bucks a session.

45:58.24
Andrew
Oh, damn.

46:00.05
Sean
Or you buy on-demand 80 bucks a session.

46:02.100
Andrew
Yeah, but I think you can do on-demand and do like five.

46:06.33
Sean
Oh, sure, sure, sure.

46:06.52
Andrew
Like...

46:07.57
Sean
Sure.

46:07.58
Andrew
Yeah.

46:08.54
Sean
Yeah.

46:10.03
Andrew
Although, for some reason... Oh, that's right. I just i said 10 professionals. so if I scale that down to five... Okay. Pay as you go. You might have to... I wonder, that might not include incentives. Like, often you have to offer an additional incentive.

46:23.45
Andrew
Like, yeah.

46:23.53
Sean
Oh, really? what What type of incentive?

46:24.96
Andrew
But... Like a gift card.

46:28.41
Sean
Oh.

46:29.23
Andrew
That's how user interviews works. Like, maybe this includes the incentive, which would be kind of impressive. But...

46:35.46
Sean
Yeah.

46:36.40
Andrew
Yeah.

46:36.58
Sean
Cool.

46:37.51
Andrew
Sweet. All right.

46:39.100
Sean
Okay. Enjoy Lion's Head National Park.

46:43.83
Andrew
Appreciate it.

46:44.01
Sean
don't Don't get stuck in Canada.

46:48.07
Andrew
I do have, we were doing a point to point trail instead of a loop trail. And so I have called like a bunch of taxi companies and there's like no taxi company anywhere near the park.

46:59.46
Sean
Oh, that's why you're calling a Canadian taxi company. That makes more sense.

47:02.48
Andrew
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So i I got a Canadian taxi company who has told me that they will be there at the pickup lot at 9 a.m.

47:03.86
Sean
I see. I see.

47:10.22
Andrew
m tomorrow. It's going to cost like 172 Canadian dollars before before tip.

47:12.62
Sean
Cool. Oh,

47:16.61
Sean
it's like two bucks US.

47:19.33
Sean
Okay. Okay.

47:20.09
Andrew
And then I, but I'm just like crossing my fingers that they're really going to show up because if they don't,

47:29.03
Sean
It's Canada. They don't they't break promises there. They're not like Americans.

47:32.35
Andrew
I hope not.

47:33.99
Sean
Yeah. Hmm.

47:34.17
Andrew
Because if not, then going have to drive to the top and then hike down and hope we can hitchhike.

47:34.41
Sean
What are

47:42.76
Andrew
Maybe? don't know.

47:43.67
Sean
what are you going to do with your car if you drive to the top?

47:46.54
Andrew
Well, we would ah ah hike down and then hitchhike back up to the top.

47:49.97
Sean
Oh.

47:50.93
Andrew
and then And then drive home.

47:51.31
Sean
I see. I see.

47:54.03
Andrew
But ideally, taxi's there when they say they're going be there.

47:54.97
Sean
That's right.

47:58.44
Andrew
We leave our car at the bottom. They take us to the top, drop us off, and then we hike down.

48:03.07
Sean
Nice. Nice.

48:04.98
Andrew
So.

48:05.52
Sean
Cool. All right. Enjoy. Have fun. I'll see you later.

48:08.21
Andrew
Thanks.

48:08.88
Sean
Let me know goes.

48:09.39
Andrew
Peace.